Hitler's Odinic Poem

[Dirk Bruere]

Came across this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_mysticism#Hitler.27s_Odinist_Poem

In 1915, while serving in the German Army on the Western Front, Hitler
wrote the following esoteric poem mentioning the pre-Christian Germanic
deity Wotan:

"Ich gehe manchmal in rauhen Nächten
Zur Wotanseiche in den stillen Hain,
Mit dunklen Mächten einen Bund zu flechten -
Die Runen zaubert mir der Mondenschein.

Und alle, die am Tage sich erfrechten,
Sie werden vor der Zauberformel klein!
Sie ziehen blank - doch statt den Strauß zu flechten,
Erstarren sie zu Stalagmitgestein.

So scheiden sich die Falschen von den Echten -
Ich greife in das Fibelnest hinein
Und gebe dann den Guten und Gerechten
Mit meiner Formel Segen und Gedeihn."

Which can be translated as:

"I often go on bitter nights
To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
With dark powers to weave a union -
The moonlight showing me the runic spell

And all who are full of impudence during the day
Are made small by the magic formula!
They draw shining steel - but instead of going into combat,
They solidify into stalagmites.

Thus the wrong ones separate from the genuine ones -
I reach into a nest of words
then give to the good and fair
With my formula blessings and prosperity"

Comments?

FFF
Dirk

[Romauld]

Recently, a script from Dirk Bruere arrived, in which they said:

: "I often go on bitter nights
: To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
: With dark powers to weave a union -

What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
a very Christianised worldview.

~R

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Romauld
: "I often go on bitter nights
: To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
: With dark powers to weave a union -
What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
a very Christianised worldview.

It requires a judgement based around Xian ethical values certainly.
But OTOH I don't think many would disagree that Hitler had 'Dark Powers'
both literally and metaphorically.

FFF
Dirk

[Romauld]

Recently, a script from Dirk Bruere arrived, in which they said:

:> : "I often go on bitter nights
:> : To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
:> : With dark powers to weave a union -
:>
:> What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
:> the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
:> a very Christianised worldview.
:
: It requires a judgement based around Xian ethical values certainly.
: But OTOH I don't think many would disagree that Hitler had 'Dark Powers'
: both literally and metaphorically.

Which really isn't the point: the point is that Hitler seems to have
considered the powers of Odin to be dark powers. that's the only way
I can read sense out of this stanza. I'm querying why Hitler would
have described those powers as dark: I'm suggesting that it was Hitler's
worldview which was very Christianised.

~R

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Romauld
:> : "I often go on bitter nights
:> : To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
:> : With dark powers to weave a union -
:>
:> What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
:> the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
:> a very Christianised worldview.
: It requires a judgement based around Xian ethical values certainly.
: But OTOH I don't think many would disagree that Hitler had 'Dark Powers'
: both literally and metaphorically.
Which really isn't the point: the point is that Hitler seems to have
considered the powers of Odin to be dark powers. that's the only way
I can read sense out of this stanza. I'm querying why Hitler would
have described those powers as dark: I'm suggesting that it was Hitler's
worldview which was very Christianised.

I see.
However, I was reading it differently.
I assumed that it was 'Dark Powers' he went to Odin to acquire, not that
Odin was a Dark Power.

FFF
Dirk

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Romauld
:> : "I often go on bitter nights
:> : To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
:> : With dark powers to weave a union -
:> :> What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
:> the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
:> a very Christianised worldview.
: It requires a judgement based around Xian ethical values certainly.
: But OTOH I don't think many would disagree that Hitler had 'Dark
Powers' : both literally and metaphorically.
Which really isn't the point: the point is that Hitler seems to have
considered the powers of Odin to be dark powers. that's the only way
I can read sense out of this stanza. I'm querying why Hitler would
have described those powers as dark: I'm suggesting that it was Hitler's
worldview which was very Christianised.

I see.
However, I was reading it differently.
I assumed that it was 'Dark Powers' he went to Odin to acquire, not that
Odin was a Dark Power.

I might as well add that I can quite envisage Odin gifting Hitler with
'dark powers', for his own reasons. See Jung's essay 'Wotan'. The fact
that I did not for a second read it that Odin was a 'Dark Power' is
perhaps a measure of my non-Xian POV.

FFF
Dirk

[Romauld]

Recently, a script from Dirk Bruere arrived, in which they said:

: I might as well add that I can quite envisage Odin gifting Hitler with
: 'dark powers', for his own reasons. See Jung's essay 'Wotan'. The fact
: that I did not for a second read it that Odin was a 'Dark Power' is
: perhaps a measure of my non-Xian POV.

Possibly; I know that I am oversensitised to the occidental assumption
that any power which is not JHWHist is dark and evil. However, in this
case my misreading was due to thinking symbollically rather than literaly:
I read the use of Odin's name as a symbolic device indicating his involvement
in the events of the poem, rather than merely as an identification of
a place. Treating Woden's Grove as just that, a place called Woden's
Grove which has magical assocations (per. my answer to your other post)
makes your reading much clearer, and makes much more sense.

~R

[Attuarii]

Post by Romauld
: I might as well add that I can quite envisage Odin gifting Hitler with
: 'dark powers', for his own reasons. See Jung's essay 'Wotan'. The fact
: that I did not for a second read it that Odin was a 'Dark Power' is
: perhaps a measure of my non-Xian POV.
Possibly; I know that I am oversensitised to the occidental assumption
that any power which is not JHWHist is dark and evil.

Ironically, seen from the comparative mythology POV, YHVH (AKA El Baal,
IIRC) shares some traits with Odinn.

Post by Romauld
However, in this
I read the use of Odin's name as a symbolic device indicating his
involvement in the events of the poem, rather than merely as an
identification of a place. Treating Woden's Grove as just that, a place
called Woden's Grove which has magical assocations (per. my answer to your
other post) makes your reading much clearer, and makes much more sense.

Na. Hitler was way into Wagner. He was probably evoking the 19th Century
German Romanic 'Wotan'.

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Dirk Bruere
I might as well add that I can quite envisage Odin gifting Hitler with
'dark powers', for his own reasons. See Jung's essay 'Wotan'.

See the Song of Harbard for that perspective. It's about Thor on
a shore meeting Odin on a ferry boat. Thor (apparently) does
not recognize his father and they end up exchanging brags and
insults.

One of The Wanderer's brags is that he goes about Midgard
inciting wars. Since he's also known for inspiration and the
inspired can be either sane or insane, it has been suggested
that Hilter was a pawn of Odin unleashed to bring war to the
world.

The poem may have been written at the point he became that
pawn.

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Dirk Bruere
I might as well add that I can quite envisage Odin gifting Hitler with
'dark powers', for his own reasons. See Jung's essay 'Wotan'.

See the Song of Harbard for that perspective. It's about Thor on
a shore meeting Odin on a ferry boat. Thor (apparently) does
not recognize his father and they end up exchanging brags and
insults.
One of The Wanderer's brags is that he goes about Midgard
inciting wars. Since he's also known for inspiration and the
inspired can be either sane or insane, it has been suggested
that Hilter was a pawn of Odin unleashed to bring war to the
world.
The poem may have been written at the point he became that
pawn.

Could be.
I have previously posted my theory that having WW2 start exactly when it
did saved the world from a major nuclear war that would likely have
happened some years later.

FFF
Dirk

[Romauld]

Recently, a script from Dirk Bruere arrived, in which they said:

: I see.
: However, I was reading it differently.
: I assumed that it was 'Dark Powers' he went to Odin to acquire, not that
: Odin was a Dark Power.

that's a good point: "To Woden's grove / with dark powers to weave a union"
doesn't *actually* specify that Odin is involved at all, merely that his
grove is the place of the weaving.

I hadn't thought of it in that literal way; very good point.

~R

[bowman]

Post by Romauld
What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
a very Christianised worldview.

Reminds me of Ingeri calling on Wotan in 'Virgin Spring'.

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[rorik]

Post by bowman

Post by Romauld
What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
a very Christianised worldview.

Reminds me of Ingeri calling on Wotan in 'Virgin Spring'.

Certainly it's about that closely related to Asatru. Even on the
vanishingly slight chance this poem is not a forgery, all Hitler knew
about "Wotan" was what he picked up from going to the opera.

regards,
rorik

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by rorik

Post by bowman

Post by Romauld
What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
a very Christianised worldview.

Reminds me of Ingeri calling on Wotan in 'Virgin Spring'.

Certainly it's about that closely related to Asatru. Even on the
vanishingly slight chance this poem is not a forgery, all Hitler knew
about "Wotan" was what he picked up from going to the opera.

True, no doubt being corrupted by that pathetic NewAge fluff bunny
Wagner. If only he had consulted you before writing those cliched operas...

FFF
Dirk

[rorik]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by bowman

Post by Romauld
What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
a very Christianised worldview.

Reminds me of Ingeri calling on Wotan in 'Virgin Spring'.

Certainly it's about that closely related to Asatru. Even on the
vanishingly slight chance this poem is not a forgery, all Hitler knew
about "Wotan" was what he picked up from going to the opera.

True, no doubt being corrupted by that pathetic NewAge fluff bunny
Wagner. If only he had consulted you before writing those cliched operas...

Do you believe Wagner's operas comprise a reliable source for the study
of Norse heathenism?

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by bowman

Post by Romauld
What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
a very Christianised worldview.

Reminds me of Ingeri calling on Wotan in 'Virgin Spring'.

Certainly it's about that closely related to Asatru. Even on the
vanishingly slight chance this poem is not a forgery, all Hitler knew
about "Wotan" was what he picked up from going to the opera.

True, no doubt being corrupted by that pathetic NewAge fluff bunny
Wagner. If only he had consulted you before writing those cliched operas...

Do you believe Wagner's operas comprise a reliable source for the study
of Norse heathenism?

No, a reliable source *of* modern Asatru culture.
A difference that will no doubt be lost on you.

FFF
Dirk

[rorik]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by bowman

Post by Romauld
What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
a very Christianised worldview.

Reminds me of Ingeri calling on Wotan in 'Virgin Spring'.

Certainly it's about that closely related to Asatru. Even on the
vanishingly slight chance this poem is not a forgery, all Hitler knew
about "Wotan" was what he picked up from going to the opera.

True, no doubt being corrupted by that pathetic NewAge fluff bunny
Wagner. If only he had consulted you before writing those cliched operas...

Do you believe Wagner's operas comprise a reliable source for the study
of Norse heathenism?

No, a reliable source *of* modern Asatru culture.
A difference that will no doubt be lost on you.

No, not lost at all. I take your meaning to be that Wagner is as
reliable a source as Freyja Aswynn, or a majority vote of the
8-year-olds burning incense in their playhouse in the woods. And I
agree, he is.

regards,
rorik

[Attuarii]

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
No, a reliable source *of* modern Asatru culture.
A difference that will no doubt be lost on you.

No, not lost at all. I take your meaning to be that Wagner is as
reliable a source as Freyja Aswynn, or a majority vote of the
8-year-olds burning incense in their playhouse in the woods. And I
agree, he is.

Wagner is far more interesting for many obvious reasons.

[rorik]

Post by Attuarii

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
No, a reliable source *of* modern Asatru culture.
A difference that will no doubt be lost on you.

No, not lost at all. I take your meaning to be that Wagner is as
reliable a source as Freyja Aswynn, or a majority vote of the
8-year-olds burning incense in their playhouse in the woods. And I
agree, he is.

Wagner is far more interesting for many obvious reasons.

More interesting in what sense? I would certainly enjoy sitting
through four hours of Wagner, whereas the same dosage of the other
sources mentioned above would induce catalepsy. But the
interest/enjoyment factor comes from his music and dramatic
imagination, not from his insights into heathen lore. Like other
19th-century artists, Wagner worked from an imperfect understanding of
the old myths and freely revised what he knew to suit his creative
purposes.

regards,
rorik

[Attuarii]

Post by rorik

Post by Attuarii

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
No, a reliable source *of* modern Asatru culture.
A difference that will no doubt be lost on you.

No, not lost at all. I take your meaning to be that Wagner is as
reliable a source as Freyja Aswynn, or a majority vote of the
8-year-olds burning incense in their playhouse in the woods. And I
agree, he is.

Wagner is far more interesting for many obvious reasons.

More interesting in what sense? I would certainly enjoy sitting
through four hours of Wagner, whereas the same dosage of the other
sources mentioned above would induce catalepsy. But the
interest/enjoyment factor comes from his music and dramatic
imagination, not from his insights into heathen lore. Like other
19th-century artists, Wagner worked from an imperfect understanding of
the old myths and freely revised what he knew to suit his creative
purposes.
regards,
rorik

Wagner did not pretend fidelity to his original sources. That is distinct
from saying he demonstrated no profound insight into them. Even to know
what Wagner's sources were is interesting. As I understand things, he
really did do a lot of research. I think Wagner did a good job capturing
something of essence in his Loki, for example.

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by bowman

Post by Romauld
What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
a very Christianised worldview.

Reminds me of Ingeri calling on Wotan in 'Virgin Spring'.

Certainly it's about that closely related to Asatru. Even on the
vanishingly slight chance this poem is not a forgery, all Hitler knew
about "Wotan" was what he picked up from going to the opera.

True, no doubt being corrupted by that pathetic NewAge fluff bunny
Wagner. If only he had consulted you before writing those cliched operas...

Before I forget.
Rorik's "vanishingly small" just got larger.
Reproduced in "Adolf Hitler" by John Toland ISBN: 0385420536

"Based on previously unpublished documents, diaries, notes, photographs,
and dramatic interviews with Hitler's colleagues and associates, this is
the definitive biography of one of the most despised yet fascinating
figures of the 20th century. Toland won the Pulitzer Prize in 1971 for
The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945."

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Romauld
: "I often go on bitter nights
: To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
: With dark powers to weave a union -
What's dark about them, is the immediate question I'd ask. Yes,
the Gallows God is not "nice", but ... dark powers? That implies
a very Christianised worldview.
~R

Hitler did have a fairly Christian world view. I believe his 'Wotan' was
more the product of 19th century German Romanticism than a study of
original sources. More Guido von List than Snorri Sturlasson.

[Ceddie]

Post by Dirk Bruere
"Ich gehe manchmal in rauhen Nächten
Zur Wotanseiche in den stillen Hain,
Mit dunklen Mächten einen Bund zu flechten -
Die Runen zaubert mir der Mondenschein.

I wonder about the word "dunkel". It doesn´t have the same flavor
exactly as the english "dark". Dark is akin to sinister, but dunkel -
I´ve forgotten much of my German, but as I remember it "dunkel" can
mean (besides dark, as in dark night) something which is not in the
broad sunlight, hidden or mysterious. So dunkle Mächten is probably
not negative at all - hidden powers but not necessarily evil. If this
poem is correctly ascribed to Hitler, which I doubt a bit, he was
certainly a better poet than an artist. C.

[Romauld]

Recently, a script from Ceddie arrived, in which they said:

: I wonder about the word "dunkel". It doesn´t have the same flavor
: exactly as the english "dark". Dark is akin to sinister, but dunkel -
: I´ve forgotten much of my German, but as I remember it "dunkel" can
: mean (besides dark, as in dark night) something which is not in the
: broad sunlight, hidden or mysterious.

So a better translation of meaning, if not a better-scanning word, would
be 'occult'? That makes sense.

~R

[Ceddie]

Someone must be having a great fun. There are more poems "by" Hitler,
circulating on the net. Just write "Hitler poem" on Google and you will
find this :

Someone posted words to a poem attributed to Hitler. The presence of
this poem on the internet seems to be restricted primarily to a few
Nazi sites, and thus how old it actually is, and whether it was written
by Hitler remains very questionable. The posting that seems to be the
earliest one that I have thus far found indicates that it was posted
for Mother's Day, May 10th, 1998 at the notoriously pro-Nazi, holocaust
denying website, Zundelsite.org, run by Ernst Zündel and his wife
Ingrid Rimland.. The next year a posting of May 9, 1999 includes what
is purported to be the original German of Hitler:

Wenn Deine Mutter alt geworden
und älter Du geworden bist,
Wenn ihr, -was früher leicht und mühelos,
nunmehr zur Last geworden ist,
Wenn ihre lieben, treuen Augen
nicht mehr, wie einst, in's Leben sehn,
Wenn ihre müdgeword'nen Füsse
sie nicht mehr tragen woll'n beim Steh'n,
Dann reiche ihr den Arm zur Stütze,
geleit sie sacht, mit Freud' und Lust!
Die Stunde kommt, da Du sie weinend
zum letzten Gang begleiten musst.
Und fragt sie Dich, so gib ihr Antwort,
undfragt sie wieder, hör ihr zu!
Und fragt sie nochmals, steh ihr Rede,
nicht ungestüm, in sanfter Ruh!
Und kann sie Dich nicht recht verstehn,
erklär ihr alles frohbewegt!
Die Stunde kommt, die bittre Stunde,
da Dich ihr Mund nach nichts mehr frägt!

Posting of a translation at Aryan Unity

[rorik]

Post by Ceddie
Someone must be having a great fun. There are more poems "by" Hitler,
circulating on the net. Just write "Hitler poem" on Google and you will
Someone posted words to a poem attributed to Hitler. The presence of
this poem on the internet seems to be restricted primarily to a few
Nazi sites, and thus how old it actually is, and whether it was written
by Hitler remains very questionable. The posting that seems to be the
earliest one that I have thus far found indicates that it was posted
for Mother's Day, May 10th, 1998 at the notoriously pro-Nazi, holocaust
denying website, Zundelsite.org, run by Ernst Zündel and his wife
Ingrid Rimland.. The next year a posting of May 9, 1999 includes what
Wenn Deine Mutter alt geworden
und älter Du geworden bist,
Wenn ihr, -was früher leicht und mühelos,
nunmehr zur Last geworden ist,
Wenn ihre lieben, treuen Augen
nicht mehr, wie einst, in's Leben sehn,
Wenn ihre müdgeword'nen Füsse
sie nicht mehr tragen woll'n beim Steh'n,
Dann reiche ihr den Arm zur Stütze,
geleit sie sacht, mit Freud' und Lust!
Die Stunde kommt, da Du sie weinend
zum letzten Gang begleiten musst.
Und fragt sie Dich, so gib ihr Antwort,
undfragt sie wieder, hör ihr zu!
Und fragt sie nochmals, steh ihr Rede,
nicht ungestüm, in sanfter Ruh!
Und kann sie Dich nicht recht verstehn,
erklär ihr alles frohbewegt!
Die Stunde kommt, die bittre Stunde,
da Dich ihr Mund nach nichts mehr frägt!
Posting of a translation at Aryan Unity

Many books have been written by mainstream scholars investigating the
"occult roots" of the Third Reich, and several others have investigated
the connection between modern Asatru and White Supremacists. Since
none of these scholars (that I have seen) has unearthed "Hitler's
Odinic poem," I would counsel extreme skepticism concerning its
authenticity.

regards,
rorik

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by rorik

Post by Ceddie
Someone must be having a great fun. There are more poems "by" Hitler,
circulating on the net. Just write "Hitler poem" on Google and you will
Someone posted words to a poem attributed to Hitler. The presence of
this poem on the internet seems to be restricted primarily to a few
Nazi sites, and thus how old it actually is, and whether it was written
by Hitler remains very questionable. The posting that seems to be the
earliest one that I have thus far found indicates that it was posted
for Mother's Day, May 10th, 1998 at the notoriously pro-Nazi, holocaust
denying website, Zundelsite.org, run by Ernst Zündel and his wife
Ingrid Rimland.. The next year a posting of May 9, 1999 includes what
Wenn Deine Mutter alt geworden
und älter Du geworden bist,
Wenn ihr, -was früher leicht und mühelos,
nunmehr zur Last geworden ist,
Wenn ihre lieben, treuen Augen
nicht mehr, wie einst, in's Leben sehn,
Wenn ihre müdgeword'nen Füsse
sie nicht mehr tragen woll'n beim Steh'n,
Dann reiche ihr den Arm zur Stütze,
geleit sie sacht, mit Freud' und Lust!
Die Stunde kommt, da Du sie weinend
zum letzten Gang begleiten musst.
Und fragt sie Dich, so gib ihr Antwort,
undfragt sie wieder, hör ihr zu!
Und fragt sie nochmals, steh ihr Rede,
nicht ungestüm, in sanfter Ruh!
Und kann sie Dich nicht recht verstehn,
erklär ihr alles frohbewegt!
Die Stunde kommt, die bittre Stunde,
da Dich ihr Mund nach nichts mehr frägt!
Posting of a translation at Aryan Unity

Many books have been written by mainstream scholars investigating the
"occult roots" of the Third Reich, and several others have investigated
the connection between modern Asatru and White Supremacists. Since
none of these scholars (that I have seen) has unearthed "Hitler's
Odinic poem," I would counsel extreme skepticism concerning its
authenticity.

Reproduced in "Adolf Hitler" by John Toland ISBN: 0385420536

"Based on previously unpublished documents, diaries, notes, photographs,
and dramatic interviews with Hitler's colleagues and associates, this is
the definitive biography of one of the most despised yet fascinating
figures of the 20th century. Toland won the Pulitzer Prize in 1971 for
The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945."

FFF
Dirk

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Ceddie
Someone must be having a great fun. There are more poems "by" Hitler,
circulating on the net. Just write "Hitler poem" on Google and you will
Someone posted words to a poem attributed to Hitler. The presence of
this poem on the internet seems to be restricted primarily to a few
Nazi sites, and thus how old it actually is, and whether it was written
by Hitler remains very questionable. The posting that seems to be the
earliest one that I have thus far found indicates that it was posted
for Mother's Day, May 10th, 1998 at the notoriously pro-Nazi, holocaust
denying website, Zundelsite.org, run by Ernst Zündel and his wife
Ingrid Rimland.. The next year a posting of May 9, 1999 includes what
Wenn Deine Mutter alt geworden
und älter Du geworden bist,
Wenn ihr, -was früher leicht und mühelos,
nunmehr zur Last geworden ist,
Wenn ihre lieben, treuen Augen
nicht mehr, wie einst, in's Leben sehn,
Wenn ihre müdgeword'nen Füsse
sie nicht mehr tragen woll'n beim Steh'n,
Dann reiche ihr den Arm zur Stütze,
geleit sie sacht, mit Freud' und Lust!
Die Stunde kommt, da Du sie weinend
zum letzten Gang begleiten musst.
Und fragt sie Dich, so gib ihr Antwort,
undfragt sie wieder, hör ihr zu!
Und fragt sie nochmals, steh ihr Rede,
nicht ungestüm, in sanfter Ruh!
Und kann sie Dich nicht recht verstehn,
erklär ihr alles frohbewegt!
Die Stunde kommt, die bittre Stunde,
da Dich ihr Mund nach nichts mehr frägt!
Posting of a translation at Aryan Unity

Many books have been written by mainstream scholars investigating the
"occult roots" of the Third Reich, and several others have investigated
the connection between modern Asatru and White Supremacists. Since
none of these scholars (that I have seen) has unearthed "Hitler's
Odinic poem," I would counsel extreme skepticism concerning its
authenticity.

Reproduced in "Adolf Hitler" by John Toland ISBN: 0385420536
"Based on previously unpublished documents, diaries, notes, photographs,
and dramatic interviews with Hitler's colleagues and associates, this is
the definitive biography of one of the most despised yet fascinating
figures of the 20th century. Toland won the Pulitzer Prize in 1971 for
The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945."

It appears on page 64 of John Toland’s “Adolf Hitler” (Wordsworth
Editions Limited, Chatham, Kent, UK, 1997 edition of original 1976
edition). Toland indicates Hitler probably wrote this poem in the autumn
of 1915 (prior to his blinding by gas on 14 October 1918). Toland notes:
“Perhaps it was the season of perception. That fall on a night made
gray-white with hoarfrost he may have felt the sense of his destiny when
he wrote this strange poem:"

FFF
Dirk

[rorik]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Ceddie
Someone must be having a great fun. There are more poems "by" Hitler,
circulating on the net. Just write "Hitler poem" on Google and you will
Someone posted words to a poem attributed to Hitler. The presence of
this poem on the internet seems to be restricted primarily to a few
Nazi sites, and thus how old it actually is, and whether it was written
by Hitler remains very questionable. The posting that seems to be the
earliest one that I have thus far found indicates that it was posted
for Mother's Day, May 10th, 1998 at the notoriously pro-Nazi, holocaust
denying website, Zundelsite.org, run by Ernst Zündel and his wife
Ingrid Rimland.. The next year a posting of May 9, 1999 includes what
Wenn Deine Mutter alt geworden
und älter Du geworden bist,
Wenn ihr, -was früher leicht und mühelos,
nunmehr zur Last geworden ist,
Wenn ihre lieben, treuen Augen
nicht mehr, wie einst, in's Leben sehn,
Wenn ihre müdgeword'nen Füsse
sie nicht mehr tragen woll'n beim Steh'n,
Dann reiche ihr den Arm zur Stütze,
geleit sie sacht, mit Freud' und Lust!
Die Stunde kommt, da Du sie weinend
zum letzten Gang begleiten musst.
Und fragt sie Dich, so gib ihr Antwort,
undfragt sie wieder, hör ihr zu!
Und fragt sie nochmals, steh ihr Rede,
nicht ungestüm, in sanfter Ruh!
Und kann sie Dich nicht recht verstehn,
erklär ihr alles frohbewegt!
Die Stunde kommt, die bittre Stunde,
da Dich ihr Mund nach nichts mehr frägt!
Posting of a translation at Aryan Unity

Many books have been written by mainstream scholars investigating the
"occult roots" of the Third Reich, and several others have investigated
the connection between modern Asatru and White Supremacists. Since
none of these scholars (that I have seen) has unearthed "Hitler's
Odinic poem," I would counsel extreme skepticism concerning its
authenticity.

Reproduced in "Adolf Hitler" by John Toland ISBN: 0385420536
"Based on previously unpublished documents, diaries, notes, photographs,
and dramatic interviews with Hitler's colleagues and associates, this is
the definitive biography of one of the most despised yet fascinating
figures of the 20th century. Toland won the Pulitzer Prize in 1971 for
The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945."

It appears on page 64 of John Toland's "Adolf Hitler" (Wordsworth
Editions Limited, Chatham, Kent, UK, 1997 edition of original 1976
edition). Toland indicates Hitler probably wrote this poem in the autumn
"Perhaps it was the season of perception. That fall on a night made
gray-white with hoarfrost he may have felt the sense of his destiny when
he wrote this strange poem:"

Thanks for the source. Odd that it has been so widely overlooked.

regards,
rorik

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Ceddie
Someone must be having a great fun. There are more poems "by" Hitler,
circulating on the net. Just write "Hitler poem" on Google and you will
Someone posted words to a poem attributed to Hitler. The presence of
this poem on the internet seems to be restricted primarily to a few
Nazi sites, and thus how old it actually is, and whether it was written
by Hitler remains very questionable. The posting that seems to be the
earliest one that I have thus far found indicates that it was posted
for Mother's Day, May 10th, 1998 at the notoriously pro-Nazi, holocaust
denying website, Zundelsite.org, run by Ernst Zündel and his wife
Ingrid Rimland.. The next year a posting of May 9, 1999 includes what
Wenn Deine Mutter alt geworden
und älter Du geworden bist,
Wenn ihr, -was früher leicht und mühelos,
nunmehr zur Last geworden ist,
Wenn ihre lieben, treuen Augen
nicht mehr, wie einst, in's Leben sehn,
Wenn ihre müdgeword'nen Füsse
sie nicht mehr tragen woll'n beim Steh'n,
Dann reiche ihr den Arm zur Stütze,
geleit sie sacht, mit Freud' und Lust!
Die Stunde kommt, da Du sie weinend
zum letzten Gang begleiten musst.
Und fragt sie Dich, so gib ihr Antwort,
undfragt sie wieder, hör ihr zu!
Und fragt sie nochmals, steh ihr Rede,
nicht ungestüm, in sanfter Ruh!
Und kann sie Dich nicht recht verstehn,
erklär ihr alles frohbewegt!
Die Stunde kommt, die bittre Stunde,
da Dich ihr Mund nach nichts mehr frägt!
Posting of a translation at Aryan Unity

Many books have been written by mainstream scholars investigating the
"occult roots" of the Third Reich, and several others have investigated
the connection between modern Asatru and White Supremacists. Since
none of these scholars (that I have seen) has unearthed "Hitler's
Odinic poem," I would counsel extreme skepticism concerning its
authenticity.

Reproduced in "Adolf Hitler" by John Toland ISBN: 0385420536
"Based on previously unpublished documents, diaries, notes, photographs,
and dramatic interviews with Hitler's colleagues and associates, this is
the definitive biography of one of the most despised yet fascinating
figures of the 20th century. Toland won the Pulitzer Prize in 1971 for
The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945."

It appears on page 64 of John Toland's "Adolf Hitler" (Wordsworth
Editions Limited, Chatham, Kent, UK, 1997 edition of original 1976
edition). Toland indicates Hitler probably wrote this poem in the autumn
"Perhaps it was the season of perception. That fall on a night made
gray-white with hoarfrost he may have felt the sense of his destiny when
he wrote this strange poem:"

Thanks for the source. Odd that it has been so widely overlooked.

A lot of things about Hitler get overlooked by those who look only for
what they want to see.

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik
Thanks for the source. Odd that it has been so widely overlooked.

A lot of things about Hitler get overlooked by those who look only for
what they want to see.

I have to agree that the mainstream historical treatment of Nazi Germany is
exceptionally irrational. It is at least as perverted as Biblically based
"history" (which is quite distinct from history of the Bible - a fully
legitimate field of research.) It sets out with foregone conclusions and
rejects anything that might challenge them. It is sad that three
generations later we are saddled with the pathology of a world gone mad.
The same madness that produced the Füersturm and the A-Bomb.

"Vae victis!"

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik
Thanks for the source. Odd that it has been so widely overlooked.

A lot of things about Hitler get overlooked by those who look only for
what they want to see.

I have to agree that the mainstream historical treatment of Nazi Germany is
exceptionally irrational. It is at least as perverted as Biblically based
"history" (which is quite distinct from history of the Bible - a fully
legitimate field of research.) It sets out with foregone conclusions and
rejects anything that might challenge them. It is sad that three
generations later we are saddled with the pathology of a world gone mad.
The same madness that produced the Füersturm and the A-Bomb.
"Vae victis!"

I am fortunate in possessing a book published in the mid 30s written as
an academic study of Nazi Germany by an outsider. His predictions as to
the coming storm were accurate. As were Jung's.

FFF
Dirk

[rorik]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik
Thanks for the source. Odd that it has been so widely overlooked.

A lot of things about Hitler get overlooked by those who look only for
what they want to see.

I have to agree that the mainstream historical treatment of Nazi Germany is
exceptionally irrational. It is at least as perverted as Biblically based
"history" (which is quite distinct from history of the Bible - a fully
legitimate field of research.) It sets out with foregone conclusions and
rejects anything that might challenge them. It is sad that three
generations later we are saddled with the pathology of a world gone mad.
The same madness that produced the Füersturm and the A-Bomb.
"Vae victis!"

Agreed. However, what seems odd is that this little verse -- whatever
its true significance -- is exactly the sort of thing I would have
expected the "Occult Nazis" and "Racist Heathen" authors to have jumped
all over, to advance their own irrational agendas.

regards,
rorik

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by rorik

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik
Thanks for the source. Odd that it has been so widely overlooked.

A lot of things about Hitler get overlooked by those who look only for
what they want to see.

I have to agree that the mainstream historical treatment of Nazi Germany is
exceptionally irrational. It is at least as perverted as Biblically based
"history" (which is quite distinct from history of the Bible - a fully
legitimate field of research.) It sets out with foregone conclusions and
rejects anything that might challenge them. It is sad that three
generations later we are saddled with the pathology of a world gone mad.
The same madness that produced the Füersturm and the A-Bomb.
"Vae victis!"

Agreed. However, what seems odd is that this little verse -- whatever
its true significance -- is exactly the sort of thing I would have
expected the "Occult Nazis" and "Racist Heathen" authors to have jumped
all over, to advance their own irrational agendas.

They have no true interest in Odin.
Their God is Hitler.

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Dirk Bruere
Reproduced in "Adolf Hitler" by John Toland ISBN: 0385420536
"Based on previously unpublished documents, diaries, notes, photographs,
and dramatic interviews with Hitler's colleagues and associates, this is
the definitive biography of one of the most despised yet fascinating
figures of the 20th century. Toland won the Pulitzer Prize in 1971 for
The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945."

Gautreks Saga. <snicker>

[Attuarii]

Post by rorik
Many books have been written by mainstream scholars investigating the
"occult roots" of the Third Reich, and several others have investigated
the connection between modern Asatru and White Supremacists. Since
none of these scholars (that I have seen) has unearthed "Hitler's
Odinic poem," I would counsel extreme skepticism concerning its
authenticity.

FWIW, Toland provided an English translation in his biography, _Hitler_.

[Madchen_Blue]

This might just be common sense but to me I read into this as Hitler
thinking that he is magical and Odin has blessed him in some way. Of
course I'm not a hard core scholar I have only read one book that's
topic was Hitler and his "dark" magic called; unholy alliance.

[Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)]

Post by Ceddie

Post by Dirk Bruere
"Ich gehe manchmal in rauhen Nächten
Zur Wotanseiche in den stillen Hain,
Mit dunklen Mächten einen Bund zu flechten -
Die Runen zaubert mir der Mondenschein.

I wonder about the word "dunkel". It doesn´t have the same flavor
exactly as the english "dark". Dark is akin to sinister, but dunkel -
I´ve forgotten much of my German, but as I remember it "dunkel" can
mean (besides dark, as in dark night) something which is not in the
broad sunlight, hidden or mysterious. So dunkle Mächten is probably
not negative at all - hidden powers but not necessarily evil. If this
poem is correctly ascribed to Hitler, which I doubt a bit, he was
certainly a better poet than an artist. C.

It's the same as in English. Dunkel means either dark or sinister.
"Dunkel Machten" should be translated as "dark powers" or "dark
forces", which implies something evil or at least very sinister.
Michael Martin - HLF

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)
It's the same as in English. Dunkel means either dark or sinister.

With the notable exception of beer/ale were dark means it
has more flavor.

Post by Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)
"Dunkel Machten" should be translated as "dark powers" or "dark
forces", which implies something evil or at least very sinister.

I started out reading it as a dark brew. Both more hearty and
more secret.

[Ceddie]

Post by Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)

Post by Ceddie

Post by Dirk Bruere
"Ich gehe manchmal in rauhen Nächten
Zur Wotanseiche in den stillen Hain,
Mit dunklen Mächten einen Bund zu flechten -
Die Runen zaubert mir der Mondenschein.

I wonder about the word "dunkel". It doesn´t have the same flavor
exactly as the english "dark". Dark is akin to sinister, but dunkel -
I´ve forgotten much of my German, but as I remember it "dunkel" can
mean (besides dark, as in dark night) something which is not in the
broad sunlight, hidden or mysterious. So dunkle Mächten is probably
not negative at all - hidden powers but not necessarily evil. If this
poem is correctly ascribed to Hitler, which I doubt a bit, he was
certainly a better poet than an artist. C.

It's the same as in English. Dunkel means either dark or sinister.
"Dunkel Machten" should be translated as "dark powers" or "dark
forces", which implies something evil or at least very sinister.
Michael Martin - HLF

You are right. C.

[Ceddie]

Post by Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)

Post by Ceddie

Post by Dirk Bruere
"Ich gehe manchmal in rauhen Nächten
Zur Wotanseiche in den stillen Hain,
Mit dunklen Mächten einen Bund zu flechten -
Die Runen zaubert mir der Mondenschein.

I wonder about the word "dunkel". It doesn´t have the same flavor
exactly as the english "dark". Dark is akin to sinister, but dunkel -
I´ve forgotten much of my German, but as I remember it "dunkel" can
mean (besides dark, as in dark night) something which is not in the
broad sunlight, hidden or mysterious. So dunkle Mächten is probably
not negative at all - hidden powers but not necessarily evil. If this
poem is correctly ascribed to Hitler, which I doubt a bit, he was
certainly a better poet than an artist. C.

It's the same as in English. Dunkel means either dark or sinister.
"Dunkel Machten" should be translated as "dark powers" or "dark
forces", which implies something evil or at least very sinister.
Michael Martin - HLF

Right. Dunkel = dark, sinister, mysterious (as in geheimlich).

[Post.Post.Colonial.Boy]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:04:58 +0000, Dirk Bruere

Post by Dirk Bruere
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_mysticism#Hitler.27s_Odinist_Poem
In 1915, while serving in the German Army on the Western Front, Hitler
wrote the following esoteric poem mentioning the pre-Christian Germanic
"Ich gehe manchmal in rauhen Nächten
Zur Wotanseiche in den stillen Hain,
Mit dunklen Mächten einen Bund zu flechten -
Die Runen zaubert mir der Mondenschein.
Und alle, die am Tage sich erfrechten,
Sie werden vor der Zauberformel klein!
Sie ziehen blank - doch statt den Strauß zu flechten,
Erstarren sie zu Stalagmitgestein.
So scheiden sich die Falschen von den Echten -
Ich greife in das Fibelnest hinein
Und gebe dann den Guten und Gerechten
Mit meiner Formel Segen und Gedeihn."
"I often go on bitter nights
To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
With dark powers to weave a union -
The moonlight showing me the runic spell
And all who are full of impudence during the day
Are made small by the magic formula!
They draw shining steel - but instead of going into combat,
They solidify into stalagmites.
Thus the wrong ones separate from the genuine ones -
I reach into a nest of words
then give to the good and fair
With my formula blessings and prosperity"
Comments?

His later vioent repression of German Heathens would lead me to
believe that he was either quite disengenuous or mad...or a
combination of the two.

Nik

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Post.Post.Colonial.Boy
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:04:58 +0000, Dirk Bruere

Post by Dirk Bruere
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_mysticism#Hitler.27s_Odinist_Poem
In 1915, while serving in the German Army on the Western Front, Hitler
wrote the following esoteric poem mentioning the pre-Christian Germanic
"Ich gehe manchmal in rauhen Nächten
Zur Wotanseiche in den stillen Hain,
Mit dunklen Mächten einen Bund zu flechten -
Die Runen zaubert mir der Mondenschein.
Und alle, die am Tage sich erfrechten,
Sie werden vor der Zauberformel klein!
Sie ziehen blank - doch statt den Strauß zu flechten,
Erstarren sie zu Stalagmitgestein.
So scheiden sich die Falschen von den Echten -
Ich greife in das Fibelnest hinein
Und gebe dann den Guten und Gerechten
Mit meiner Formel Segen und Gedeihn."
"I often go on bitter nights
To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
With dark powers to weave a union -
The moonlight showing me the runic spell
And all who are full of impudence during the day
Are made small by the magic formula!
They draw shining steel - but instead of going into combat,
They solidify into stalagmites.
Thus the wrong ones separate from the genuine ones -
I reach into a nest of words
then give to the good and fair
With my formula blessings and prosperity"
Comments?

His later vioent repression of German Heathens would lead me to
believe that he was either quite disengenuous or mad...or a
combination of the two.

Depends. If he believed he acquired his power from Wotan it would make
sense to try and ensure nobody else did likewise.

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Dirk Bruere
Depends. If he believed he acquired his power from Wotan it would make
sense to try and ensure nobody else did likewise.

He had amazing powers of selfdestruction. Are those the ones to which you
refer?

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere
Depends. If he believed he acquired his power from Wotan it would make
sense to try and ensure nobody else did likewise.

He had amazing powers of selfdestruction. Are those the ones to which you
refer?

Not really.
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere
Depends. If he believed he acquired his power from Wotan it would make
sense to try and ensure nobody else did likewise.

He had amazing powers of selfdestruction. Are those the ones to which you
refer?

Not really.
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

I don't know what you base this perception upon. I do not share it. If
Hitler held any magick sword that broke, I submit to you it was out of
loyalty to its rightful owner that the sword failed its wielder.

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere
Depends. If he believed he acquired his power from Wotan it would make
sense to try and ensure nobody else did likewise.

He had amazing powers of selfdestruction. Are those the ones to which you
refer?

Not really.
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

I don't know what you base this perception upon. I do not share it. If
Hitler held any magick sword that broke, I submit to you it was out of
loyalty to its rightful owner that the sword failed its wielder.

Hitler's magick sword broke when he attacked the Ice Giants.

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Dirk Bruere
Hitler's magick sword broke when he attacked the Ice Giants.

That might explain when, but it doesn't explain why.

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere
Hitler's magick sword broke when he attacked the Ice Giants.

That might explain when, but it doesn't explain why.

He failed to follow the plan?
That was the plan?

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere
Hitler's magick sword broke when he attacked the Ice Giants.

That might explain when, but it doesn't explain why.

He failed to follow the plan?
That was the plan?

I have submitted my speculation as to why.

[rorik]

Post by Dirk Bruere
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

Hmm. Would this be according to:

(a) Wagner
(b) Aswynn
(c) Rydberg
(d) List
(e) Your own UPG?

regards,
rorik

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

(a) Wagner
(b) Aswynn
(c) Rydberg
(d) List
(e) Your own UPG?

Volsung Saga

FFF
Dirk

[rorik]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

(a) Wagner
(b) Aswynn
(c) Rydberg
(d) List
(e) Your own UPG?

Volsung Saga

Right. In other words, (e)?

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

(a) Wagner
(b) Aswynn
(c) Rydberg
(d) List
(e) Your own UPG?

Volsung Saga

Right. In other words, (e)?

Mythological record.

FFF
Dirk

[Ceddie]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

(a) Wagner
(b) Aswynn
(c) Rydberg
(d) List
(e) Your own UPG?

Volsung Saga

Right. In other words, (e)?

Mythological record.
FFF
Dirk

Explicitly mentioned in Völsunga saga, masterly put in focus by
Wagner. C.

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Ceddie

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

(a) Wagner
(b) Aswynn
(c) Rydberg
(d) List
(e) Your own UPG?

Volsung Saga

Right. In other words, (e)?

Mythological record.
FFF
Dirk

Explicitly mentioned in Völsunga saga, masterly put in focus by
Wagner. C.

Good grief, you too? Fine, let's all put aside the musty old
literature and take our myths from 19th century amateurs. It seems
quite the "in" thing to do.

regards,
rorik

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Ceddie

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

(a) Wagner
(b) Aswynn
(c) Rydberg
(d) List
(e) Your own UPG?

Volsung Saga

Right. In other words, (e)?

Mythological record.
FFF
Dirk

Explicitly mentioned in Völsunga saga, masterly put in focus by
Wagner. C.

Good grief, you too? Fine, let's all put aside the musty old
literature and take our myths from 19th century amateurs. It seems
quite the "in" thing to do.

So now you're claiming the Volsung Saga is bogus...

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by r***@gmail.com
Good grief, you too? Fine, let's all put aside the musty old
literature and take our myths from 19th century amateurs. It seems
quite the "in" thing to do.

If you are including me in the lot, I belive you have missed something. I
have to take exception to your characterization of Wagner. Hi goal was not
to provide a scholarly exposition on the Germanic Heathen traditions. His
goal was to produce his own mythological poetry by drawing from ancient
Germanic traditions. He also drew from other sources.

How many words of Latin, or other non-Germanic stem can you identify in
this:

http://www.wagneroperas.com/indexrheingoldlibretto.html

[Ceddie]

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Ceddie

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

(a) Wagner
(b) Aswynn
(c) Rydberg
(d) List
(e) Your own UPG?

Volsung Saga

Right. In other words, (e)?

Mythological record.
FFF
Dirk

Explicitly mentioned in Völsunga saga, masterly put in focus by
Wagner. C.

Good grief, you too? Fine, let's all put aside the musty old
literature and take our myths from 19th century amateurs. It seems
quite the "in" thing to do.
regards,
rorik

Rorik, I´m not joking. This is actually stated in Völsunga saga. My
dear aunt Jona taught me the noble art of reading long time ago - and
it is there beyond any doubt, I read it with my own little eyes. Odinn
actually gave Sigmund the sword through a trick, similar to the way
Arthur got his sword, (and Alexander his sword); quite a striking
similarity. Later, when Sigmund was old, he met Odinn in battle, the
sword was broken and Sigmund fell. Odinn is not named explicitly but
the narrative leaves no doubt about his character. But you know all
this, Rorik, don´t you? You seem to be a very educated man. The point
with the sword is not accentuated in Völsunga saga but in Wagners Ring
it is strikingly dramatized. Wagner is terribly controversial but I
have only admiration for him. It is fantastic to experience how the old
Germanic lore springs to life in his operas. He is for the opera what
Doug Freyburger is for the ARA (!). Of course we don´t take any myths
from Wagner - Hitler may have done so, but we don´t need to, we get
the old stuff straight from the horse´s mouth. C.

[rorik]

Post by Ceddie

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Ceddie

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere
It was always a trait of Wotan that he gave the magick sword to the
hero, and which then broke at a crucial moment and cost everything.

(a) Wagner
(b) Aswynn
(c) Rydberg
(d) List
(e) Your own UPG?

Volsung Saga

Right. In other words, (e)?

Mythological record.
FFF
Dirk

Explicitly mentioned in Völsunga saga, masterly put in focus by
Wagner. C.

Good grief, you too? Fine, let's all put aside the musty old
literature and take our myths from 19th century amateurs. It seems
quite the "in" thing to do.
regards,
rorik

Rorik, I´m not joking. This is actually stated in Völsunga saga. My
dear aunt Jona taught me the noble art of reading long time ago - and
it is there beyond any doubt, I read it with my own little eyes.

Ceddie, I'm glad that two of us in this thread have actually read
Völsunga saga, but we must have read two different versions if you
interpret it as saying that "It was always a trait of Wotan that he
gave the magick sword to the hero, and which then broke at a crucial
moment and cost everything."

Post by Ceddie
Odinn actually gave Sigmund the sword through a trick, similar to the way
Arthur got his sword, (and Alexander his sword); quite a striking
similarity.

Of course. But no "magick" was involved. Not even any magic, unless
you want to infer that some sort of spell was used to keep the others
from drawing the sword from the tree. Nothing in the text specifies
this, however.

Later, when Sigmund was old, he met Odinn in battle, the

Post by Ceddie
sword was broken and Sigmund fell.

Yes, after many years, when Sigmund struck hard with his sword against
an opponent's weapon, the sword broke. But again, where is the
"magick" here? Particularly given that the text *does* expressly refer
to magic being used in this battle -- by Sigmund's spádísir, to keep
the other weapons from harming him. So in fact, this saga does not
give even a single example, much less establish that it was "always a
trait" of Wotan to bestow "magickal" swords upon heros, that would
later betray them.

Post by Ceddie
The point with the sword is not accentuated in Völsunga saga but in Wagners Ring
it is strikingly dramatized.

Because Wagner is telling a different story -- one that he made up for
dramatic effect.

Post by Ceddie
Wagner is terribly controversial but I
have only admiration for him. It is fantastic to experience how the old
Germanic lore springs to life in his operas. He is for the opera what
Doug Freyburger is for the ARA (!). Of course we don´t take any myths
from Wagner - Hitler may have done so, but we don´t need to, we get
the old stuff straight from the horse´s mouth. C.

And yet, that's what's being done here. In the context of Dirk's "one
story is as good as another" approach to Norse heathenism, this is
unexceptional. I'm just surprised that you would go along with this
mythological revisionism.

regards,
rorik

[Ceddie]

Rorik, I only know of this one particular instance where Odinn gave a
sword to a man only to break it later and so cause his (timely) death.
The ongoing debate between you and Dirk is of no concern to me. I
only meant to say that this event is certainly mentioned in Völsunga
saga. Let me state clearly that I have the fullest respect for your
great learning and keen understanding of our old lore and your sharp
logical reasoning as well - still I feel that Asatru as a religion or a
philosophy must have ample space for many different channels of
devotion and even creative myth-making. I can see no harm in that. C.

[rorik]

Post by Ceddie
I feel that Asatru as a religion or a
philosophy must have ample space for many different channels of
devotion and even creative myth-making. I can see no harm in that. C.

Of course, that's the central point of contention, not only here on
a.r.a. but throughout modern heathenry: are we attempting to follow a
genuine, historically-based belief system, or are we just making up
silly childrens' games? There is simply no point of interface between
the two positions, other than the common use of a few words and names.

Play well,
rorik

[Attuarii]

Post by rorik

Post by Ceddie
I feel that Asatru as a religion or a
philosophy must have ample space for many different channels of
devotion and even creative myth-making. I can see no harm in that. C.

Of course, that's the central point of contention, not only here on
a.r.a. but throughout modern heathenry: are we attempting to follow a
genuine, historically-based belief system, or are we just making up
silly childrens' games? There is simply no point of interface between
the two positions, other than the common use of a few words and names.

Corrupting the existing record is wrong. It destroys the past. Inventing
new forms of expression using existing motifs is legitimate.

[Ceddie]

Post by Attuarii
Corrupting the existing record is wrong. It destroys the past. Inventing
new forms of expression using existing motifs is legitimate.

My thought exactly. C.

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Ceddie

Post by Attuarii
Corrupting the existing record is wrong. It destroys the past. Inventing
new forms of expression using existing motifs is legitimate.

My thought exactly. C.

Die heretic!
(Printed on behalf or Rorik)

FFF
Dirk

[rorik]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Ceddie

Post by Attuarii
Corrupting the existing record is wrong. It destroys the past. Inventing
new forms of expression using existing motifs is legitimate.

My thought exactly. C.

Die heretic!
(Printed on behalf or Rorik)
FFF
Dirk

LOL! No, as I said before, play on. The vast majority of humanity
has always preferred playing to thinking, and I doubt that is going to
change anytime soon. Similarly, some people are content to render
themselves irrelevant while others aren't, and no amount of arguing is
going to change that. So by all means, continue making up your
"Asatru" as you go, if it keeps you happy until supper time.

regards,
rorik

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by rorik

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Ceddie

Post by Attuarii
Corrupting the existing record is wrong. It destroys the past. Inventing
new forms of expression using existing motifs is legitimate.

My thought exactly. C.

Die heretic!
(Printed on behalf or Rorik)
FFF
Dirk

LOL! No, as I said before, play on. The vast majority of humanity
has always preferred playing to thinking, and I doubt that is going to
change anytime soon. Similarly, some people are content to render
themselves irrelevant while others aren't, and no amount of arguing is
going to change that. So by all means, continue making up your
"Asatru" as you go, if it keeps you happy until supper time.

The only opinion that matters is that of the Aesir and Vanir.
I suspect that Odin recognises his name and who's calling even if the
caller forgets which hand the mead horn should be in according to
Authentic Heathen Scholarship.

FFF
Dirk

[bowman]

Post by rorik
The vast majority of humanity
has always preferred playing to thinking, and I doubt that is going to
change anytime soon.

Voltaire suggested to Frederick the Great that hoi polloi benefitted from a
religion with a strong system of reward and punishment, while a different
belief was suitable for the upper classes. However, he was a little too
astute to present the idea to the Great Unwashed.

In another vein, Eliade lamented that the scholars were too scholarly to
risk a hermeneutic; a little more research and then we will know for sure..


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[Ceddie]

Post by bowman
Voltaire suggested to Frederick the Great that hoi polloi benefitted from a
religion with a strong system of reward and punishment, while a different
belief was suitable for the upper classes. However, he was a little too
astute to present the idea to the Great Unwashed.
In another vein, Eliade lamented that the scholars were too scholarly to
risk a hermeneutic; a little more research and then we will know for sure..

In physics we have the famous wave / particle duality. You can´t
describe the micro-world with only one view - you must work with both.
Light is a particle, light is a wave. Newton was wrong, Huygens was
wrong - together they are right. Same goes for an electron. Perhaps a
similar paradigm is valid for a religion. We have a scholarly side and
we have the esoteric side. Just a thought. C.

[Attuarii]

Post by Ceddie

Post by bowman
Voltaire suggested to Frederick the Great that hoi polloi benefitted from
a religion with a strong system of reward and punishment, while a
different belief was suitable for the upper classes. However, he was a
little too astute to present the idea to the Great Unwashed.
In another vein, Eliade lamented that the scholars were too scholarly to
risk a hermeneutic; a little more research and then we will know for sure..

In physics we have the famous wave / particle duality. You can´t
describe the micro-world with only one view - you must work with both.
Light is a particle, light is a wave. Newton was wrong, Huygens was
wrong - together they are right. Same goes for an electron. Perhaps a
similar paradigm is valid for a religion. We have a scholarly side and
we have the esoteric side. Just a thought. C.

Wave-particle duality is a bit more precise than the simple need for two
models to explain one realm. The more a thing behaves like a particle, the
less it behaves like a wave. There is an exact means of determining to
what extent 'waveness' dominates over 'particleness'.

The teaching Pravâhana Gaivali, the Râganyabandhu[*], conveyed to Silaka
Sâlâvatya and Kaikitâyana Dâlbhya is relevant here.

Also of interest is the following. Understand the sections to be the words
of the physicist whose name is used as the section title.

http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/1-57062-768-1.cfm
1. Introduction: Of Shadows and Symbols 1

HEISENBERG
2. Truth Dwells in the Deeps 33
3. Scientific and Religious Truths 40
4. The Debate between Plato and Democritus 46
5. Science and the Beautiful 56
6. If Science Is Conscious of Its Limits . . . 70

SCHROEDINGER
7. Why Not Talk Physics? 79
8. The Oneness of Mind 86
9. The I That Is God 92
10. The Mystic Vision 96

EINSTEIN
11. Cosmic Religious Feeling 103
12. Science and Religion 107

DE BROGLIE
13. The Aspiration Towards Spirit 119
14. The Mechanism Demands a Mysticism 126

JEANS
15. In the Mind of Some Eternal Spirit 135
16. A Universe of Pure Thought 147

PLANCK
17. The Mystery of Our Being 159

PAULI
18. Embracing the Rational and the Mystical 169

EDDINGTON
19. Beyond the Veil of Physics 181
20. Mind-Stuff 199
21. Defense of Mysticism 209

[8]Râganyabandhu: Bound to the Râganya, the ancient Vedic nobility.

[Ceddie]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Ceddie

Post by bowman
Voltaire suggested to Frederick the Great that hoi polloi benefitted from
a religion with a strong system of reward and punishment, while a
different belief was suitable for the upper classes. However, he was a
little too astute to present the idea to the Great Unwashed.
In another vein, Eliade lamented that the scholars were too scholarly to
risk a hermeneutic; a little more research and then we will know for sure..

In physics we have the famous wave / particle duality. You can´t
describe the micro-world with only one view - you must work with both.
Light is a particle, light is a wave. Newton was wrong, Huygens was
wrong - together they are right. Same goes for an electron. Perhaps a
similar paradigm is valid for a religion. We have a scholarly side and
we have the esoteric side. Just a thought. C.

Wave-particle duality is a bit more precise than the simple need for two
models to explain one realm. The more a thing behaves like a particle, the
less it behaves like a wave. There is an exact means of determining to
what extent 'waveness' dominates over 'particleness'.
The teaching Pravâhana Gaivali, the Râganyabandhu[*], conveyed to Silaka
Sâlâvatya and Kaikitâyana Dâlbhya is relevant here.
Also of interest is the following. Understand the sections to be the words
of the physicist whose name is used as the section title.
http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/1-57062-768-1.cfm
1. Introduction: Of Shadows and Symbols 1
HEISENBERG
2. Truth Dwells in the Deeps 33
3. Scientific and Religious Truths 40
4. The Debate between Plato and Democritus 46
5. Science and the Beautiful 56
6. If Science Is Conscious of Its Limits . . . 70
SCHROEDINGER
7. Why Not Talk Physics? 79
8. The Oneness of Mind 86
9. The I That Is God 92
10. The Mystic Vision 96
EINSTEIN
11. Cosmic Religious Feeling 103
12. Science and Religion 107
DE BROGLIE
13. The Aspiration Towards Spirit 119
14. The Mechanism Demands a Mysticism 126
JEANS
15. In the Mind of Some Eternal Spirit 135
16. A Universe of Pure Thought 147
PLANCK
17. The Mystery of Our Being 159
PAULI
18. Embracing the Rational and the Mystical 169
EDDINGTON
19. Beyond the Veil of Physics 181
20. Mind-Stuff 199
21. Defense of Mysticism 209
[8]Râganyabandhu: Bound to the Râganya, the ancient Vedic nobility.
--
"It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses
or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not
change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
Giordano Bruno

Thanks.

[bowman]

Post by Ceddie
Perhaps a
similar paradigm is valid for a religion. We have a scholarly side and
we have the esoteric side.

“What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem?”

Most successful religions have been able to combine reason and faith,
intellectualism and simple rites, yin and yang, if you will. One size fits
all might work for gimme caps, but not so well for religions.

I've never been able to take much Kierkegaard, but in his support of fideism
one of his arguments, the postponement argument, has some validity when it
comes to scholarship. The 19th century made some wild assumptions based of
romanticism, most of which were overturned in the 20th century. Of course,
ongoing scholarship is already tarnishing the reputations of people like
Dumezil or Eliade, so we can expect new conclusions in the 21st century.
Maybe we should wait for the 22nd century to be certain? Most people don't
expect to live for several centuries and prefer their answers NOW, even if
they are not the most correct.



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[Dirk Bruere]

Post by bowman

Post by Ceddie
Perhaps a
similar paradigm is valid for a religion. We have a scholarly side and
we have the esoteric side.

“What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem?”
Most successful religions have been able to combine reason and faith,
intellectualism and simple rites, yin and yang, if you will. One size fits
all might work for gimme caps, but not so well for religions.
I've never been able to take much Kierkegaard, but in his support of fideism
one of his arguments, the postponement argument, has some validity when it
comes to scholarship. The 19th century made some wild assumptions based of
romanticism, most of which were overturned in the 20th century. Of course,
ongoing scholarship is already tarnishing the reputations of people like
Dumezil or Eliade, so we can expect new conclusions in the 21st century.
Maybe we should wait for the 22nd century to be certain? Most people don't
expect to live for several centuries and prefer their answers NOW, even if
they are not the most correct.

In religions or religious orgs we generally have several 'levels' of
knowledge or understanding. The levels can be described as:

Level Zero - The Literal Truth.
Level One - The Working Hypothesis
Level Two – The Metaphor
Level Three - Fluidity of Belief
Level Four - Abandonment of Belief

Level 0 is for the plebs.
Level 1 is for plebs who thing a bit.
Level 2 is for theologians
Level 3 is for heretics and mystics
Level 4 is Zen

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Dirk Bruere
In religions or religious orgs we generally have several 'levels' of
Level Zero - The Literal Truth.
Level One - The Working Hypothesis
Level Two ? The Metaphor
Level Three - Fluidity of Belief
Level Four - Abandonment of Belief
Level 0 is for the plebs.
Level 1 is for plebs who thing a bit.
Level 2 is for theologians
Level 3 is for heretics and mystics
Level 4 is Zen

Is that true? I mean literally?

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere
In religions or religious orgs we generally have several 'levels' of
Level Zero - The Literal Truth.
Level One - The Working Hypothesis
Level Two ? The Metaphor
Level Three - Fluidity of Belief
Level Four - Abandonment of Belief
Level 0 is for the plebs.
Level 1 is for plebs who think a bit.
Level 2 is for theologians
Level 3 is for heretics and mystics
Level 4 is Zen

Is that true? I mean literally?

Which level do you want me to answer on?

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere
In religions or religious orgs we generally have several 'levels' of
Level Zero - The Literal Truth.
Level One - The Working Hypothesis
Level Two ? The Metaphor
Level Three - Fluidity of Belief
Level Four - Abandonment of Belief
Level 0 is for the plebs.
Level 1 is for plebs who think a bit.
Level 2 is for theologians
Level 3 is for heretics and mystics
Level 4 is Zen

Is that true? I mean literally?

Which level do you want me to answer on?

Why, that of the question, of course.

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere
In religions or religious orgs we generally have several 'levels' of
Level Zero - The Literal Truth.
Level One - The Working Hypothesis
Level Two ? The Metaphor
Level Three - Fluidity of Belief
Level Four - Abandonment of Belief
Level 0 is for the plebs.
Level 1 is for plebs who think a bit.
Level 2 is for theologians
Level 3 is for heretics and mystics
Level 4 is Zen

Is that true? I mean literally?

Which level do you want me to answer on?

Why, that of the question, of course.

3

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere
In religions or religious orgs we generally have several 'levels' of
Level Zero - The Literal Truth.
Level One - The Working Hypothesis
Level Two ? The Metaphor
Level Three - Fluidity of Belief
Level Four - Abandonment of Belief
Level 0 is for the plebs.
Level 1 is for plebs who think a bit.
Level 2 is for theologians
Level 3 is for heretics and mystics
Level 4 is Zen

Is that true? I mean literally?

Which level do you want me to answer on?

Why, that of the question, of course.

3

But which 3 of them?

[Doug Frisk]

Post by Dirk Bruere
In religions or religious orgs we generally have several 'levels' of
Level Zero - The Literal Truth.
Level One - The Working Hypothesis
Level Two - The Metaphor
Level Three - Fluidity of Belief
Level Four - Abandonment of Belief
Level 0 is for the plebs.
Level 1 is for plebs who thing a bit.
Level 2 is for theologians
Level 3 is for heretics and mystics
Level 4 is Zen

Dream on. You're good up to the third description, or level 2 in your zero
based numbering scheme. The final two are about rejection, not
understanding.

On the one hand, perhaps you've reached enlightenment beyond enlightenment.
On the other, more likely hand you're pulling shit out of your ass and
calling it diamonds.

In fact, given your own self descriptions, it's apparent you feel you fit in
the final two levels. So that structure is more about self gratification
than anything else.

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Doug Frisk

Post by Dirk Bruere
In religions or religious orgs we generally have several 'levels' of
Level Zero - The Literal Truth.
Level One - The Working Hypothesis
Level Two - The Metaphor
Level Three - Fluidity of Belief
Level Four - Abandonment of Belief
Level 0 is for the plebs.
Level 1 is for plebs who thing a bit.
Level 2 is for theologians
Level 3 is for heretics and mystics
Level 4 is Zen

Dream on. You're good up to the third description, or level 2 in your zero
based numbering scheme. The final two are about rejection, not
understanding.
On the one hand, perhaps you've reached enlightenment beyond enlightenment.
On the other, more likely hand you're pulling shit out of your ass and
calling it diamonds.
In fact, given your own self descriptions, it's apparent you feel you fit in
the final two levels. So that structure is more about self gratification
than anything else.

It's about creating reality.

FFF
Dirk

[steelfoot]

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Doug Frisk

Post by Dirk Bruere
In religions or religious orgs we generally have several 'levels' of
Level Zero - The Literal Truth.
Level One - The Working Hypothesis
Level Two - The Metaphor
Level Three - Fluidity of Belief
Level Four - Abandonment of Belief
Level 0 is for the plebs.
Level 1 is for plebs who thing a bit.
Level 2 is for theologians
Level 3 is for heretics and mystics
Level 4 is Zen

Dream on. You're good up to the third description, or level 2 in your zero
based numbering scheme. The final two are about rejection, not
understanding.
On the one hand, perhaps you've reached enlightenment beyond

enlightenment.

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Doug Frisk
On the other, more likely hand you're pulling shit out of your ass and
calling it diamonds.
In fact, given your own self descriptions, it's apparent you feel you fit in
the final two levels. So that structure is more about self

gratification

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Doug Frisk
than anything else.

It's about creating reality.
FFF
Dirk

wtf. You forgot level five, were we all join together with the Proud Peacock
at the center (level 6) of the tree of life, and look upward to knowledge,
understanding, and wisdom (but of course only after 'surviving' Da'ath).

Yeeesh.

steelfoot

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Doug Frisk

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Doug Frisk

Post by Dirk Bruere
In religions or religious orgs we generally have several 'levels' of
Level Zero - The Literal Truth.
Level One - The Working Hypothesis
Level Two - The Metaphor
Level Three - Fluidity of Belief
Level Four - Abandonment of Belief
Level 0 is for the plebs.
Level 1 is for plebs who thing a bit.
Level 2 is for theologians
Level 3 is for heretics and mystics
Level 4 is Zen

Dream on. You're good up to the third description, or level 2 in your

zero

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Doug Frisk
based numbering scheme. The final two are about rejection, not
understanding.
On the one hand, perhaps you've reached enlightenment beyond

enlightenment.

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Doug Frisk
On the other, more likely hand you're pulling shit out of your ass and
calling it diamonds.
In fact, given your own self descriptions, it's apparent you feel you

fit in

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Doug Frisk
the final two levels. So that structure is more about self

gratification

Post by Dirk Bruere

Post by Doug Frisk
than anything else.

It's about creating reality.
FFF
Dirk

wtf. You forgot level five, were we all join together with the Proud Peacock
at the center (level 6) of the tree of life, and look upward to knowledge,
understanding, and wisdom (but of course only after 'surviving' Da'ath).

Consider politics.
The tell me it hasn't created *your* reality.
You see no levels 0-3?

Then consider the placebo effect.

FFF
Dirk

[Romauld]

Recently, a script from Doug Frisk arrived, in which they said:

: Dream on. You're good up to the third description, or level 2 in your zero
: based numbering scheme.

I suspect that the only significance of this is that Dirk has at some
point been, or been associated with, programmers. One tends to note
that anyone who's programmed numbers things starting from 0

~R

[Doug Frisk]

Post by Ceddie
Rorik, I only know of this one particular instance where Odinn gave a
sword to a man only to break it later and so cause his (timely) death.

That's essentially the linguistic nit that Rorik is picking. To call it a
"trait" would require more than one instance. Volsung's saga would be an
incident.

[steelfoot]

Post by Doug Frisk

Post by Ceddie
Rorik, I only know of this one particular instance where Odinn gave a
sword to a man only to break it later and so cause his (timely) death.

That's essentially the linguistic nit that Rorik is picking. To call it a
"trait" would require more than one instance. Volsung's saga would be an
incident.

Or it would require support gleaned from parrallel observation. For
instance: What are the major character traits of Odinn? What do we know of
him from his words? What - if any - is his ultimate purpose? From other
accounts, how has he gone about achieving that purpose (or any purpose for
that matter)?

By all available evidence, I think a warrior would be well advised to be
wary in the use of _any_ gift granted by hoary one-eye.

To set my position straight: I greatly enjoy much of Wagner's work, and I
think Freya Aswynn is an interesting woman. But I do not look to either of
them as the final resource for questions of lore. At the same time, I find
the stullifying arguement that "if it isn't found under every old rock we
kick over then it isn't valid" to be a needed counter-balance to the
"anything goes" crowd, and in the end equally as useless.

steelfoot

[Doug Frisk]

Post by steelfoot

Post by Doug Frisk

Post by Ceddie
Rorik, I only know of this one particular instance where Odinn gave a
sword to a man only to break it later and so cause his (timely) death.

That's essentially the linguistic nit that Rorik is picking. To call it a
"trait" would require more than one instance. Volsung's saga would be an
incident.

Or it would require support gleaned from parrallel observation. For
instance: What are the major character traits of Odinn? What do we know of
him from his words? What - if any - is his ultimate purpose? From other
accounts, how has he gone about achieving that purpose (or any purpose for
that matter)?
By all available evidence, I think a warrior would be well advised to be
wary in the use of _any_ gift granted by hoary one-eye.

Oh, indeed. Odin has a wolf at the door. He has an interest in collecting
the greatest of men at the height of their power. Calling the high one's
attention to yourself may not be the course of action that would lead to a
straw death.

[steelfoot]

Post by Doug Frisk
Oh, indeed. Odin has a wolf at the door. He has an interest in collecting
the greatest of men at the height of their power. Calling the high one's
attention to yourself may not be the course of action that would lead to a
straw death.

Heh.

That is both funny (appropos) and true.

Bone to bone; blood to blood; limb to limb...

steelfoot

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Ceddie
Odinn
actually gave Sigmund the sword through a trick, similar to the way
Arthur got his sword, (and Alexander his sword); quite a striking
similarity.

In our Lore Odin got Gungnir and Thor got Mjollnir by magical
means also. Diety and leader, it's been a parallel that has
been deliberately pursued by kings for a long time. The
appearance of "dei gratia" on UK coins is just a variation on
a very old theme.

I've heard a legend that Charlemagne had a sword forgred
from skymetal - meteoric iron. Given what I've since read
about forging meteoric nickle-iron I doubt it. I figure that
there are so many legends of magical weapons owned by
kings that I couldn't have heard a fraction of them all.

Post by Ceddie
Later, when Sigmund was old, he met Odinn in battle, the
sword was broken and Sigmund fell.

Parallel with the dragon at the end of Beowulf? Odhinn in
some sense personifies the inpersonal nature of aging and
death, or the fact that no matter how strong you are there
is always someone stronger. The dragon filled that same
symbolic niche in Beowulf.

Post by Ceddie
Wagner is terribly controversial but I
have only admiration for him. It is fantastic to experience how the old
Germanic lore springs to life in his operas. He is for the opera what
Doug Freyburger is for the ARA (!). Of course we don´t take any myths
from Wagner - Hitler may have done so, but we don´t need to, we get
the old stuff straight from the horse´s mouth.

It's pretty wierd being compared to someone as well known
as Wagner. Thanks.

Wagner modified the lore to his own ends and he was no
heathen. I know from my scientific training that the observer
must perforce effect the observed and there is no way I can
possibly depict the Lore without including my own biases,
but I do my best to keep my bias heathen and therefore
internal.

As to taking myths from Wagner, I don't have an issue with
encountering them first in Wagner, going to the original
source (in translation, I have no plans to learn Old Norse),
and learning what it was that he was working from. Same
with Rorik's favorite citation Freya Aswynn. I like her stuff
in much the same way I like Wagner's stuff. It points me
farther back.

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Dirk Bruere
In 1915, while serving in the German Army on the Western Front, Hitler
wrote the following esoteric poem mentioning the pre-Christian Germanic
Comments?

Hilter was no heathen. He suppressed the Wandervogel
movement quite viciously. Maybe this was some sort of
practice at calling them dark and evil before he set his
sights on them as victims a couple of decades later.

For all we know he wrote similar poems about commies,
intellectuals, gypsies and Jews before setting his sights
on them as well.

[Attuarii]

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Dirk Bruere
In 1915, while serving in the German Army on the Western Front, Hitler
wrote the following esoteric poem mentioning the pre-Christian Germanic
Comments?

Hilter was no heathen. He suppressed the Wandervogel
movement quite viciously.

Did Hitler do this, or was it the work of others such as Himmler? I ask
this because Irving suggests much that took place under Hitler was not on
his orders, but merely done 'in his name'. "Füror's orders" may not have
been what legitimate in all cases.

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Dirk Bruere
In 1915, while serving in the German Army on the Western Front, Hitler
wrote the following esoteric poem mentioning the pre-Christian Germanic
Comments?

Hilter was no heathen. He suppressed the Wandervogel
movement quite viciously.

Did Hitler do this, or was it the work of others such as Himmler? I ask
this because Irving suggests much that took place under Hitler was not on
his orders, but merely done 'in his name'. "Füror's orders" may not have
been what legitimate in all cases.

Hitler relied extensively on verbal orders rather than written ones.

FFF
Dirk

[Attuarii]

Post by Dirk Bruere
Hitler relied extensively on verbal orders rather than written ones.

A well documented fact, I am sure.

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by Attuarii

Post by Dirk Bruere
Hitler relied extensively on verbal orders rather than written ones.

A well documented fact, I am sure.

Attested to by multiple independent sources - usually the ones to whom
he gave the orders, and their aides.

When Hell asked Hitler what he intended doing if he ever had full
freedom of action against the Jews, his response was:

"If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will
be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall
have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the
Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be
hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink.
They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they
are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until
the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will
be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!"
(quoted in John Toland, Adolf Hitler. London: Book Club Associates,
1977, p.116)

Why should it suprise anyone that he did what he said he'd do?

FFF
Dirk

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Dirk Bruere
"I often go on bitter nights
To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
With dark powers to weave a union -
The moonlight showing me the runic spell
And all who are full of impudence during the day
Are made small by the magic formula!
They draw shining steel - but instead of going into combat,
They solidify into stalagmites.
Thus the wrong ones separate from the genuine ones -
I reach into a nest of words
then give to the good and fair
With my formula blessings and prosperity"
Comments?

One level -

He's in the trenches at night actually doing the fighting. The
generals are in the back during the day giving the directions.
But the directions have led to the stalemate of the trenches.

So the speeches of the officers during the day are made
small by the reality of fighting in the dark trenches. The
officers rattle their sabers but they are still stuck in the
stalemate of the trenches.

So he separates the morally good from the morally bad.
The ones in the trenches from the officers. Heck, he
doesn't even rail at the soldiers on the other side just the
officers. And he predicts the soldiers will be in charge
after the war.

Another level -

At night he retreats into his own mind. Internal depression
leads him to plan what he will do after the war and what he
will write.

The current government is openly in charge so he will
work his conspiracy at night. And during the night his
movement will grow and take over. The authorities will
show open power against him but the ways that power
is wielded will not work. He ended up in jail and then
in power after all.

So he searches within himself to find the words he'll
use after the war to build his movement. Find out who is
with him, who is against him. Building on the economic
wreck after the war he has a vision that should bring
prosperity.

My second level of interpretation is in hindsight. Whether
he was starting his plan at this point or not can't be seen
in the actual words of his poem.

One way or the other, I don't see the least sign that Hilter
was a heathen or in any way followed the Aesir. There
are plenty of poems by Christians about dieties in the
Greek and Roman pantheons, so why not poems by
Christians about ours? and Hilter was only nominally
Catholic through his family, not in actual attending practice.

[El Barbaro del Ritmo]

Post by Doug Freyburger
One way or the other, I don't see the least sign that Hilter
was a heathen or in any way followed the Aesir. There
are plenty of poems by Christians about dieties in the
Greek and Roman pantheons, so why not poems by
Christians about ours? and Hilter was only nominally
Catholic through his family, not in actual attending practice.

I think that's it exactly. As has been mentioned in this thread
already, regarding Jung and Wagner, Germanic mythological themes were
widespread across a wide era, ranging in their application from the
poetic to the political to social radicalism. As a devotee of Wagner
and as one who traveled in such circles as the Thule Society, it's no
surprise that a man who felt himself "sent by Providence" would also in
war-time write of Wotan.

A modern counterpart may have made reference to Klingons.

[bowman]

Post by Doug Freyburger
He's in the trenches at night actually doing the fighting. The
generals are in the back during the day giving the directions.
But the directions have led to the stalemate of the trenches.

Out of the trenches came Ernst Junger and Erich Maria Remarque, who reported
the same sort of events but drew radically different conclusions. Which was
closer to a Asatru viewpoint?

Post by Doug Freyburger
One way or the other, I don't see the least sign that Hilter
was a heathen or in any way followed the Aesir.

iirc, Hitler carried a volume of Schopenhauer in the trenches. I assume it
was "Parerga and Paralipomena"; "The World as Will and Representation" or
"The Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason" would be heavy
going with people shooting at you.


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[Ceddie]

Post by bowman
iirc, Hitler carried a volume of Schopenhauer in the trenches. I assume it
was "Parerga and Paralipomena"; "The World as Will and Representation" or
"The Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason" would be heavy
going with people shooting at you.

Hehe, thanks for a good joke! C.

[Dirk Bruere]

Post by bowman

Post by Doug Freyburger
He's in the trenches at night actually doing the fighting. The
generals are in the back during the day giving the directions.
But the directions have led to the stalemate of the trenches.

Out of the trenches came Ernst Junger and Erich Maria Remarque, who reported
the same sort of events but drew radically different conclusions. Which was
closer to a Asatru viewpoint?

Post by Doug Freyburger
One way or the other, I don't see the least sign that Hilter
was a heathen or in any way followed the Aesir.

iirc, Hitler carried a volume of Schopenhauer in the trenches. I assume it
was "Parerga and Paralipomena"; "The World as Will and Representation" or
"The Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason" would be heavy
going with people shooting at you.

Das Kapital was probably a bit of a killer as well, unless held in front
during the attack.

FFF
Dirk