Discussion:
The Relentless Creep Of Paganism Into The Episcopal Left
(too old to reply)
Sound of Trumpet
2006-04-05 09:52:28 UTC
Permalink
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609295/posts

Star Trip: the weird and relentless creep of paganism into the
Episcopal left


Stand Firm ^ | 4/04/2006 | Greg Griffith


Posted on 04/04/2006 6:07:30 PM PDT by sionnsar


It seems almost quaint now, but almost two years ago there was a
gathering of pagans in Michigan that shocked Epicopalians with seminars
such as "Sex & Spells: Gender and Political Activism in the Witchen
Community." It was sponsored by Oasis, the California-based pro-gay
activist group devoted to advancing the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and
trans-gendered agenda in the Episcopal Church.

Then there was the much-publicized dust-up over William Melnyk, the
Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Pennsylvania, who was asked to
resign his post as rector after it became clear he was moonlighting as
a Druid priest, alternately going by the names "Oakwyse" and "Bran."

Now, thanks to some research by commenter Liz at TitusOneNine, it turns
out that Maury Johnston, author of Gays Under Grace: A Gay Christian's
Response to Homosexuality and the recent widely-publicized essay
"Facing the Spectre of Schism", is also known as "Shadwynn" and belongs
to a Wiccan order called "Keepers of the Cauldron." The coven is
described as being in the "grail quest tradition," based on the
Arthurian legends and featuring a strong Eucharistic theme. Mr.
Johnston claims to have "married" nine couples in his 18 years a Wiccan
priest, and his other writings only underscore his bizarre notions of
how to "blend" Christianity and Wicca.

Mr. Johnston's essay "Facing the Spectre of Schism" was also reprinted
with much enthusiasm in this post at "Father Jake Stops The World" and
on - surprise - the Oasis blog. Father Jake posted another Johnston
essay here.

These are not the only examples of Episcopal priests and prominent lay
activists on the left dabbling in - and in some cases, immersing
themselves in - polytheism, paganism, and witchcraft. They are simply
some of the more well-known examples.

Many of us have taken solace in humor whenever we read of Episcopal
clerics and prominent lay activists heavily involved in paganism, but
it has not been without the knolwedge that there is a sinister core to
these peoples' alternative beliefs. Many pagans and Wiccans insist that
they don't worship the devil, and that's true as far as it goes, but
it's small comfort to those Christians who have put their spiritual
trust in those who, at best, profess contradictory beliefs and, at
worst, are willing to serve up a potion of part Christianity, part
Wicca to unsuspecting seekers.

But now it is time for us and for revisionist Episcopalians to have a
serious discussion about the matter of paganism in the Episcopal left.
It has become increasingly difficult to shrug off events like
Michigan's seminar, and people like William Melnyk and Maury Johnston,
as fringe cases, not when the likes of Louie Crew and Father Jake - two
of the Episcopal left's most visible activists - see fit to rely on Mr.
Johnston's words to make their case that ECUSA should open its doors as
widely as possible, to welcome in God only knows what.

It is time for Episcopalians everywhere - especially those in the
"middle" who may just now be waking up to the crisis in their church -
to know that there are more than a few pagans among the left, and that
they are uniformly in support of the gay/lesbian/transgender agenda.
There is much overlap between pagan views of sexuality, and the LGBT
agenda; and while it's incorrect to assume that one who supports the
LGBT agenda also supports paganism, it should give reasonable
Episcopalians serious pause when they ponder why it is that the
opposite is true - that it's safe to assume that if someone supports
paganism, he also supports the LGBT cause in the Episcopal Church.

It is time for the Episcopal left to admit it has pagans in its midst,
and to admit that this is a problem it needs to address.

It is time for Louie Crew, Father Jake, Oasis, and the clergy of the
Church of the Holy Comforter to tell us what they think of Mr.
Johnston's 18-year association with Wicca - and as a priest, no less...
not just a curious bystander.

Is this the first they have heard about Mr. Johnston's life as a Wiccan
priest? If so, may we assume that they will take this opportunity to
disavow themselves of Mr. Johnston's practice of Wicca, and to begin
seriously to confront the influence of paganism among their fellow
travellers?

If this is not the first they've heard of it, what may we assume about
their failure to mention it? Was it mere oversight? A calculated
omission? Or is it tacit approval?
Heidi Graw
2006-04-05 10:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609295/posts
(snip)
Post by Sound of Trumpet
It is time for the Episcopal left to admit it has pagans in its midst,
and to admit that this is a problem it needs to address.
I think pagans need to have a serious discussion amongst themselves. These
pseudo-Wiccan priests may be using their contacts within the pagan community
to perform covert conversions. Pagans tend to be a tolerant lot. They'll
accept anyone who's not out to overtly harm them. Infiltrating the pagan
and heathen communities was one way priests in elder times managed to
convert people to the Christian faith. Read Church history about these
efforts. Sometimes infiltration worked, othertimes more forceful measures
were used. Not all pagans or heathens were burnt at the stake or
slaughtered by the sword.

Peaceful conversions begin with engaging in niceties, earning the trust of
those you want to convert. Once within their midst, you can slowly and
steadily overturn and replace paganism or heathenism bit by bit with
Christianity.

Pagans should really take a second look at what they're doing and ask
themselves if they want to risk losing their faith once again! These
Christian priests can be wily fellows. They'll use any trick in the book to
gain those souls for Jehovah. I'd be really leary about these sorts of
clerics who try to straddle the divide.

As for attempting to convert Heathens...well...you may have a much harder
time trying to do that. They're a lot more suspicious, less trusting, and
very defensive. If push comes to shove, a true Heathen will defend his/her
faith. Don't make the mistake of lumping pagans ( Wiccans) with Heathens of
the Asatru faith. Offend a Heathen and there will be consequences!

So, while it may be possible for Christians to be friends with a
Heathen...you will notice *clear* boundaries drawn. In my case, friendships
with Christians are at arm's length. A devout Christian will never be a
member of my inner circle. A Christian will also not be taken into my
confidence. The relationship can be civil, but no more than that. That's my
choice. Other Heathens may think differently.

Heidi
Derrick Parfitt
2006-04-05 21:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Typical answer. Let's face reality...Christians are much more respectable
than heathens. The leadership of the major heathen organizations are largely
run by controversial personalities. If you don't believe me, just imagine
the people who run most of the larger heathen organizations representing
heathenism on a major TV news show (e.g. 60 minutes, CNN, Fox News). If some
of these people are exposed for the white separatists and national
socialists they are, and they certainly will be, what repercussions do you
think it would have on the heathen movement as a whole?

Derrick
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609295/posts
(snip)
Post by Sound of Trumpet
It is time for the Episcopal left to admit it has pagans in its midst,
and to admit that this is a problem it needs to address.
I think pagans need to have a serious discussion amongst themselves.
These pseudo-Wiccan priests may be using their contacts within the pagan
community to perform covert conversions. Pagans tend to be a tolerant
lot. They'll accept anyone who's not out to overtly harm them.
Infiltrating the pagan and heathen communities was one way priests in
elder times managed to convert people to the Christian faith. Read Church
history about these efforts. Sometimes infiltration worked, othertimes
more forceful measures were used. Not all pagans or heathens were burnt
at the stake or slaughtered by the sword.
Peaceful conversions begin with engaging in niceties, earning the trust of
those you want to convert. Once within their midst, you can slowly and
steadily overturn and replace paganism or heathenism bit by bit with
Christianity.
Pagans should really take a second look at what they're doing and ask
themselves if they want to risk losing their faith once again! These
Christian priests can be wily fellows. They'll use any trick in the book
to gain those souls for Jehovah. I'd be really leary about these sorts of
clerics who try to straddle the divide.
As for attempting to convert Heathens...well...you may have a much harder
time trying to do that. They're a lot more suspicious, less trusting, and
very defensive. If push comes to shove, a true Heathen will defend
his/her faith. Don't make the mistake of lumping pagans ( Wiccans) with
Heathens of the Asatru faith. Offend a Heathen and there will be
consequences!
So, while it may be possible for Christians to be friends with a
Heathen...you will notice *clear* boundaries drawn. In my case,
friendships with Christians are at arm's length. A devout Christian will
never be a member of my inner circle. A Christian will also not be taken
into my confidence. The relationship can be civil, but no more than that.
That's my choice. Other Heathens may think differently.
Heidi
Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)
2006-04-05 21:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derrick Parfitt
Typical answer. Let's face reality...Christians are much more respectable
than heathens. The leadership of the major heathen organizations are largely
run by controversial personalities. If you don't believe me, just imagine
the people who run most of the larger heathen organizations representing
heathenism on a major TV news show (e.g. 60 minutes, CNN, Fox News). If some
of these people are exposed for the white separatists and national
socialists they are, and they certainly will be, what repercussions do you
think it would have on the heathen movement as a whole?
Derrick
Derrick,
your argument is sadly flawed, since most white supremacists and
National Socialists/Fascists subscribe to Christianity. Hitler himself
spoke about "upholding Christian culture", and uttered many remarks of
contempt about our Heathen heritage!

Michael Martin - HLF
Post by Derrick Parfitt
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609295/posts
(snip)
Post by Sound of Trumpet
It is time for the Episcopal left to admit it has pagans in its midst,
and to admit that this is a problem it needs to address.
I think pagans need to have a serious discussion amongst themselves.
These pseudo-Wiccan priests may be using their contacts within the pagan
community to perform covert conversions. Pagans tend to be a tolerant
lot. They'll accept anyone who's not out to overtly harm them.
Infiltrating the pagan and heathen communities was one way priests in
elder times managed to convert people to the Christian faith. Read Church
history about these efforts. Sometimes infiltration worked, othertimes
more forceful measures were used. Not all pagans or heathens were burnt
at the stake or slaughtered by the sword.
Peaceful conversions begin with engaging in niceties, earning the trust of
those you want to convert. Once within their midst, you can slowly and
steadily overturn and replace paganism or heathenism bit by bit with
Christianity.
Pagans should really take a second look at what they're doing and ask
themselves if they want to risk losing their faith once again! These
Christian priests can be wily fellows. They'll use any trick in the book
to gain those souls for Jehovah. I'd be really leary about these sorts of
clerics who try to straddle the divide.
As for attempting to convert Heathens...well...you may have a much harder
time trying to do that. They're a lot more suspicious, less trusting, and
very defensive. If push comes to shove, a true Heathen will defend
his/her faith. Don't make the mistake of lumping pagans ( Wiccans) with
Heathens of the Asatru faith. Offend a Heathen and there will be
consequences!
So, while it may be possible for Christians to be friends with a
Heathen...you will notice *clear* boundaries drawn. In my case,
friendships with Christians are at arm's length. A devout Christian will
never be a member of my inner circle. A Christian will also not be taken
into my confidence. The relationship can be civil, but no more than that.
That's my choice. Other Heathens may think differently.
Heidi
Derrick Parfitt
2006-04-05 23:42:26 UTC
Permalink
You might not like what I wrote, but my argument is not flawed. I was
speaking about the leadership of many Heathen organizations and how they
would be viewed by society.

Hitler was a religion of himself. He was neither Christian nor Heathen
Post by Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)
Post by Derrick Parfitt
Typical answer. Let's face reality...Christians are much more respectable
than heathens. The leadership of the major heathen organizations are largely
run by controversial personalities. If you don't believe me, just imagine
the people who run most of the larger heathen organizations representing
heathenism on a major TV news show (e.g. 60 minutes, CNN, Fox News). If some
of these people are exposed for the white separatists and national
socialists they are, and they certainly will be, what repercussions do you
think it would have on the heathen movement as a whole?
Derrick
Derrick,
your argument is sadly flawed, since most white supremacists and
National Socialists/Fascists subscribe to Christianity. Hitler himself
spoke about "upholding Christian culture", and uttered many remarks of
contempt about our Heathen heritage!
Michael Martin - HLF
Post by Derrick Parfitt
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609295/posts
(snip)
Post by Sound of Trumpet
It is time for the Episcopal left to admit it has pagans in its midst,
and to admit that this is a problem it needs to address.
I think pagans need to have a serious discussion amongst themselves.
These pseudo-Wiccan priests may be using their contacts within the pagan
community to perform covert conversions. Pagans tend to be a tolerant
lot. They'll accept anyone who's not out to overtly harm them.
Infiltrating the pagan and heathen communities was one way priests in
elder times managed to convert people to the Christian faith. Read Church
history about these efforts. Sometimes infiltration worked, othertimes
more forceful measures were used. Not all pagans or heathens were burnt
at the stake or slaughtered by the sword.
Peaceful conversions begin with engaging in niceties, earning the trust of
those you want to convert. Once within their midst, you can slowly and
steadily overturn and replace paganism or heathenism bit by bit with
Christianity.
Pagans should really take a second look at what they're doing and ask
themselves if they want to risk losing their faith once again! These
Christian priests can be wily fellows. They'll use any trick in the book
to gain those souls for Jehovah. I'd be really leary about these sorts of
clerics who try to straddle the divide.
As for attempting to convert Heathens...well...you may have a much harder
time trying to do that. They're a lot more suspicious, less trusting, and
very defensive. If push comes to shove, a true Heathen will defend
his/her faith. Don't make the mistake of lumping pagans ( Wiccans) with
Heathens of the Asatru faith. Offend a Heathen and there will be
consequences!
So, while it may be possible for Christians to be friends with a
Heathen...you will notice *clear* boundaries drawn. In my case,
friendships with Christians are at arm's length. A devout Christian will
never be a member of my inner circle. A Christian will also not be taken
into my confidence. The relationship can be civil, but no more than that.
That's my choice. Other Heathens may think differently.
Heidi
Christopher A. Lee
2006-04-05 23:53:25 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 19:42:26 -0400, "Derrick Parfitt"
Post by Derrick Parfitt
You might not like what I wrote, but my argument is not flawed. I was
speaking about the leadership of many Heathen organizations and how they
would be viewed by society.
Hitler was a religion of himself. He was neither Christian nor Heathen
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our
Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no
religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a
religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character
training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing
people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted
from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know
About The Separation of State and Church?"
Dirk Bruere
2006-04-05 23:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 19:42:26 -0400, "Derrick Parfitt"
Post by Derrick Parfitt
You might not like what I wrote, but my argument is not flawed. I was
speaking about the leadership of many Heathen organizations and how they
would be viewed by society.
Hitler was a religion of himself. He was neither Christian nor Heathen
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our
Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no
religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a
religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character
training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing
people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted
from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know
About The Separation of State and Church?"
Hitler was an unprincipled pragmatist who would say and do anything to
acquire power. It would hardly be the first time he lied out of expediency.

FFF
Dirk
Christopher A. Lee
2006-04-06 00:04:33 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:50:02 +0100, Dirk Bruere
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 19:42:26 -0400, "Derrick Parfitt"
Post by Derrick Parfitt
You might not like what I wrote, but my argument is not flawed. I was
speaking about the leadership of many Heathen organizations and how they
would be viewed by society.
Hitler was a religion of himself. He was neither Christian nor Heathen
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our
Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no
religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a
religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character
training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing
people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted
from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know
About The Separation of State and Church?"
Hitler was an unprincipled pragmatist who would say and do anything to
acquire power. It would hardly be the first time he lied out of expediency.
So demonstrate that he knew he was evil and lied to carry out his evil
agenda.

But in any case. Those who carried out his orders accepted his
justification and motivation.

You need to learn your religion's bloody history. Read what both
Catholic and Protestant church fathers ordered about the Jews. He was
the culmination of the best part of two millennia of church-fostered
anti-Semitism.
Post by Dirk Bruere
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
2006-04-06 00:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:50:02 +0100, Dirk Bruere
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 19:42:26 -0400, "Derrick Parfitt"
Post by Derrick Parfitt
You might not like what I wrote, but my argument is not flawed. I was
speaking about the leadership of many Heathen organizations and how they
would be viewed by society.
Hitler was a religion of himself. He was neither Christian nor Heathen
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our
Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no
religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a
religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character
training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing
people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted
from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know
About The Separation of State and Church?"
Hitler was an unprincipled pragmatist who would say and do anything to
acquire power. It would hardly be the first time he lied out of expediency.
So demonstrate that he knew he was evil and lied to carry out his evil
agenda.
He certainly knew that he lied.
OTOH evil is a POV.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
But in any case. Those who carried out his orders accepted his
justification and motivation.
Not in the religious sphere.
Himmler was most certainly pagan.
So were a number of high ranking NSDAP members. In the religious sphere
Hitler did not care as long as he got what he wanted.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
You need to learn your religion's bloody history. Read what both
Catholic and Protestant church fathers ordered about the Jews. He was
the culmination of the best part of two millennia of church-fostered
anti-Semitism.
My religion is Asatru, not Xianity.

FFF
Dirk
Christopher A. Lee
2006-04-06 00:32:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 01:18:30 +0100, Dirk Bruere
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our
Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no
religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a
religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character
training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing
people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted
from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know
About The Separation of State and Church?"
Hitler was an unprincipled pragmatist who would say and do anything to
acquire power. It would hardly be the first time he lied out of expediency.
So demonstrate that he knew he was evil and lied to carry out his evil
agenda.
He certainly knew that he lied.
Just because you say so?

How does this demonstrate that he did?
Dirk Bruere
2006-04-06 00:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 01:18:30 +0100, Dirk Bruere
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our
Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no
religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a
religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character
training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing
people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted
from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know
About The Separation of State and Church?"
Hitler was an unprincipled pragmatist who would say and do anything to
acquire power. It would hardly be the first time he lied out of expediency.
So demonstrate that he knew he was evil and lied to carry out his evil
agenda.
He certainly knew that he lied.
Just because you say so?
How does this demonstrate that he did?
How about the non-aggression treaty with Russia?
Does that count as a lie?


FFF
Dirk
Hatto von Aquitanien
2006-04-06 01:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 01:18:30 +0100, Dirk Bruere
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our
Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no
religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a
religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character
training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing
people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted
from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know
About The Separation of State and Church?"
Hitler was an unprincipled pragmatist who would say and do anything to
acquire power. It would hardly be the first time he lied out of expediency.
So demonstrate that he knew he was evil and lied to carry out his evil
agenda.
He certainly knew that he lied.
Just because you say so?
How does this demonstrate that he did?
How about the non-aggression treaty with Russia?
Does that count as a lie?
On whose part?
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/raack.htm
--
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/6.html
Nil conscire sibi
Hatto von Aquitanien
2006-04-06 01:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:50:02 +0100, Dirk Bruere
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 19:42:26 -0400, "Derrick Parfitt"
Post by Derrick Parfitt
You might not like what I wrote, but my argument is not flawed. I was
speaking about the leadership of many Heathen organizations and how they
would be viewed by society.
Hitler was a religion of himself. He was neither Christian nor Heathen
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our
Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no
religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a
religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character
training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing
people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted
from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know
About The Separation of State and Church?"
Hitler was an unprincipled pragmatist who would say and do anything to
acquire power. It would hardly be the first time he lied out of expediency.
So demonstrate that he knew he was evil and lied to carry out his evil
agenda.
But in any case. Those who carried out his orders accepted his
justification and motivation.
You need to learn your religion's bloody history. Read what both
Catholic and Protestant church fathers ordered about the Jews. He was
the culmination of the best part of two millennia of church-fostered
anti-Semitism.
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.html
--
http://www.ice.gov/graphics/news/newsreleases/articles/051115chicago.htm
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/05/03/Zundel_in_Germany.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4733820.stm
E pur si muove
Mike Painter
2006-04-06 00:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 19:42:26 -0400, "Derrick Parfitt"
Post by Derrick Parfitt
You might not like what I wrote, but my argument is not flawed. I
was speaking about the leadership of many Heathen organizations and
how they would be viewed by society.
Hitler was a religion of himself. He was neither Christian nor Heathen
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our
Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no
religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a
religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character
training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need
believing people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted
from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know
About The Separation of State and Church?"
Hitler was an unprincipled pragmatist who would say and do anything to
acquire power. It would hardly be the first time he lied out of expediency.
That hardly removes him from christianity. It seems the same kind of thing
Martin Luther did and I've known a few ministers who have acquired power the
same way.
Dirk Bruere
2006-04-06 00:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Painter
Post by Dirk Bruere
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 19:42:26 -0400, "Derrick Parfitt"
Post by Derrick Parfitt
You might not like what I wrote, but my argument is not flawed. I
was speaking about the leadership of many Heathen organizations and
how they would be viewed by society.
Hitler was a religion of himself. He was neither Christian nor Heathen
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our
Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no
religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a
religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character
training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need
believing people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted
from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know
About The Separation of State and Church?"
Hitler was an unprincipled pragmatist who would say and do anything to
acquire power. It would hardly be the first time he lied out of expediency.
That hardly removes him from christianity. It seems the same kind of thing
Martin Luther did and I've known a few ministers who have acquired power the
same way.
The most that can be said is that Hitler had an Xian upbringing.
I don't believe he regarded himself as anything in particular, except
maybe the successor to JC.

Consider his comments on Islam in the Table Talk records.

FFF
Dirk
bowman
2006-04-06 01:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Painter
That hardly removes him from christianity. It seems the same kind of thing
Martin Luther did and I've known a few ministers who have acquired power
the same way.
" But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and
forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name?
They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing
this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. For our
knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that
they are not secret after all, and thus our conscience is encumbered with
it before God. So let us beware. In my opinion the problem must be resolved
thus: If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in
their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from
our country. Let them think of their fatherland; then they need no longer
wail and lie before God against us that we are holding them captive, nor
need we then any longer complain that they are burdening us with their
blasphemy and their usury. This is the most natural and the best course of
action, which will safe guard the interest of both parties."

Hitler? Nah, Martin Luther in 'The Jews and their Lies'

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm



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Heidi Graw
2006-04-06 07:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derrick Parfitt
Typical answer. Let's face reality...Christians are much more respectable
than heathens.
Did you use an objective measure? Weigh heathens and Christians on some
sort of "respectability scale?"
I haven't actually done that. I weigh the individuals as I come across
them.
Post by Derrick Parfitt
The leadership of the major heathen organizations are largely run by
controversial personalities.
Yet, Christians, too, have been headed by contraversial personalities.
These ones tend to be the most vocal and "out there" kinda folks.
Post by Derrick Parfitt
If you don't believe me, just imagine the people who run most of the larger
heathen organizations representing heathenism on a major TV news show (e.g.
60 minutes, CNN, Fox News).
I don't watch CNN or Fox News. It's been a few years since I've seen
60-Minutes. Whoever these people are, they surely didn't make it onto the
Global TV News....a Canadian network. If these people's message hadn't made
it to my neck of the woods, they couldn't be all that famous or influential.
However, some of the more nutty Christians make it into our news. They tend
to be Americans. I think our media plugs a spot for them merely for comedy
relief. The Pope gets quite a bit of air-time.

As for all those religious stations, ie. Vision TV and such, I don't watch
those because they only focus on the Big 3 religions. Once in a while they
might feature the Sikhs or Buddhists. Asatru is not on their radar screen.
Wicca hasn't made it either and they have a bigger following than Asatru.

And what I get on our Multicultural channel...it's a choice between Chinese
and East Indian. The odd time I can grab a half hour of German television.

I realize with satellite TV you can get everything from around the world.
But, does satellite TV offer pagan and heathen programming? I don't think
we're there yet.

You have to remember that Asatru didn't really get off the ground until just
30 years or so ago. It took Christianity several hundred years to really
gain that foothold. And take a look at the Mormons...after a hundred and
fifty years, they're still pretty much confined to within their own State.
A few have ventured out and beyond, but I don't know to what extent they've
managed to take root elsewhere.

Asatru is still too young in its re-construction to have those illustrious
leaders to draw from. We need a far greater member base before any geniuses
among us can rise to the top. Give it time....It will happen. It may not
happen in our lifetime, but the day will come. I'm sure of it.
Post by Derrick Parfitt
If some of these people are exposed for the white separatists and national
socialists they are, and they certainly will be, what repercussions do you
think it would have on the heathen movement as a whole?
By far those white separatists are those Fundamentalist
Christians....Christian Identity, Southern Baptist KKK. And if any notable
heathen white separates rise to the forefront, I suspect these ones will
come out of the USA. The race issues are far more compelling and ingrained
in the US than anywhere else, or it may be that race issues are more openly
talked about in the US to give the impression that white Americans are
racists...no matter what their religion.

But, if white separatists of the Asatru faith make it into the media for
spreading hate, well...we just have to tackle that when the time comes. It
would mean non-racist Asatruar have to make their voices known to combat
that. It's happened before when someone tried to misrepresent our faith.
The response was immediate, loud and effective. So, if Asatruar of ill
repute become known, make sure Asatruar of good reputation become informed
so they can organize their own campaign to combat that misrepresentation.
That's all we really can do.

Heidi
bowman
2006-04-06 13:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
And take a look at the Mormons...after a hundred and
fifty years, they're still pretty much confined to within their own State.
A few have ventured out and beyond, but I don't know to what extent
they've managed to take root elsewhere.
Do a little more homework. There are about 10 million Mormons and the sect
is growing rapidly. Roughly half are outside the US. Where did the pushcart
pioneers come from?


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Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)
2006-04-06 17:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
But, if white separatists of the Asatru faith make it into the media for
spreading hate, well...we just have to tackle that when the time comes. It
would mean non-racist Asatruar have to make their voices known to combat
that. It's happened before when someone tried to misrepresent our faith.
The response was immediate, loud and effective. So, if Asatruar of ill
repute become known, make sure Asatruar of good reputation become informed
so they can organize their own campaign to combat that misrepresentation.
That's all we really can do.
Heidi
But how does one defines "racism", "racial hatred", or "white
supremacy"? Personally speaking I have no problem with people from
other cultures moving into our traditionally white communities,
provided they make an effort to fit into our society, and we have the
space and resources available to take them in. And I have no problem
with blacks and whites mixing socially.
But I have no time for those bogus asylum seekers who in fact are
criminals on the run in their own (third world) countries but come over
here claiming political persecution. And I am tough on those who refuse
to adjust to our western life-style and want to change our countries
into fundamentalist Islamic Republics, or conspire to carry out acts of
brutal terror (9/11, London, Madrid, etc) against their host nations.
With those types of immigrants I am not prepared to share my land with.
And the same goes for those illegal Mexicans who recently demonstrated
in LA and other Ca cities. Those guys should be pushed back over the
border.
But does being tough on criminal immigrants makes me a racist or white
supremacist? I don't think so. But some people call my viewpoints
racist.
So I think before we start throwing around terms like "racism",
"hate", etc. we first have to make an attempt trying to establish a
precise and accurate definition of those words.

Michael Martin - HLF
Doug Freyburger
2006-04-06 21:11:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Derrick Parfitt
Typical answer. Let's face reality...Christians are much more respectable
than heathens.
Did you use an objective measure? Weigh heathens and Christians on some
sort of "respectability scale?"
I haven't actually done that. I weigh the individuals as I come across
them.
Asatru is a fringe religion therefore draws more people from the
fringe. Christianity is a mainstream religion therefore draws more
people from the center. Simple as that. We have a higher
percentage of nuts as do all other fringe faiths.
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Derrick Parfitt
The leadership of the major heathen organizations are largely run by
controversial personalities.
Yet, Christians, too, have been headed by contraversial personalities.
These ones tend to be the most vocal and "out there" kinda folks.
And the ones who get into trouble are sometimes forgiven and
return to leadership, other times drop out of site. Doesn't matter.
They already have a well established position so they are hurt
less by it.
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Derrick Parfitt
If you don't believe me, just imagine the people who run most of the larger
heathen organizations representing heathenism on a major TV news show (e.g.
60 minutes, CNN, Fox News).
I don't watch CNN or Fox News. It's been a few years since I've seen
60-Minutes. Whoever these people are, they surely didn't make it onto the
Global TV News....a Canadian network. If these people's message hadn't made
it to my neck of the woods, they couldn't be all that famous or influential.
However, some of the more nutty Christians make it into our news. They tend
to be Americans. I think our media plugs a spot for them merely for comedy
relief. The Pope gets quite a bit of air-time.
In compairson it's nice when Asatru makes it into the letters to the
editor seciton of some newspaper, check. But at least one heathen
leader has appeared on a few local TV shows and any who have
get extensive discussion on ARA over the years. Far too much
controverty with one notable exception.
Post by Heidi Graw
Asatru is still too young in its re-construction to have those illustrious
leaders to draw from. We need a far greater member base before any geniuses
among us can rise to the top. Give it time....It will happen. It may not
happen in our lifetime, but the day will come. I'm sure of it.
Heathens, meet Sveinbjorn Beinteinsson. Again. He appeared
in I think two copies of National Geographic, spoke before the
Icelandic Althing, got Asatru officially recognized. Folks may
disagree with his politics and such but the types of controverty
he ended up in didn't hurt Asatru as a whole.
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Derrick Parfitt
If some of these people are exposed for the white separatists and national
socialists they are, and they certainly will be, what repercussions do you
think it would have on the heathen movement as a whole?
That depends on the general reaction among heathens. I have
been quite unhappy with the circling of the wagons at times.
Post by Heidi Graw
By far those white separatists are those Fundamentalist
Christians....Christian Identity, Southern Baptist KKK.
One rotten apple spoils the barrel.
Post by Heidi Graw
But, if white separatists of the Asatru faith make it into the media for
spreading hate, well...we just have to tackle that when the time comes.
So far what's made the media is butting heads with the native
tribes over Kennewick Man. Is there such a thing as bad
publicity?
Post by Heidi Graw
It
would mean non-racist Asatruar have to make their voices known to combat
that. It's happened before when someone tried to misrepresent our faith.
The response was immediate, loud and effective.
So may it continue to happen.
Attuarii
2006-04-06 21:46:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Freyburger
So far what's made the media is butting heads with the native
tribes over Kennewick Man. Is there such a thing as bad
publicity?
Ha! I needed an excuse to introduce this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/06/washington/06cnd-mckinney.html

I find McKinney's behavior illadvised, and really makes the job of the
security guards difficult, but overall, I believe this will turn into a net
gain for her. I believe she is the same person I saw interviewed about
the Carlyle Group a while back. She seems like a feisty character. I
would not what her as an enemy.
Post by Doug Freyburger
Post by Heidi Graw
It
would mean non-racist Asatruar have to make their voices known to combat
that. It's happened before when someone tried to misrepresent our faith.
The response was immediate, loud and effective.
So may it continue to happen.
There's the problem also of being labled as an extremist because our are
associated with group X, and the reason group X is labled as extremist is
because it's members are all considered extremist. Why are the members
considered extremist? Because they are members of group X.
--
"It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses
or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not
change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
Giordano Bruno
Doug Freyburger
2006-04-06 22:24:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Attuarii
There's the problem also of being labled as an extremist because our are
associated with group X, and the reason group X is labled as extremist is
because it's members are all considered extremist. Why are the members
considered extremist? Because they are members of group X.
Asatru is a fringe religion therefore an extremist religion. Therefore
all Asatruar are extremists. Yep, I've encountered that reasoning.

It's a bit like saying a nuclear physist is a qualified expert in that
therefore is also a qualified expert in psychotherapy. Humans just
aren't that simple. We can and are fringe in some ways, mainstream
in other ways.
bowman
2006-04-07 01:32:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Freyburger
Christianity is a mainstream religion therefore draws more
people from the center. Simple as that. We have a higher
percentage of nuts as do all other fringe faiths.
Right...

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/profiles/listalpha.htm

We don't have anything like the Church of God with Signs Following, a.k.a
Snake Handlers, the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments,
the Peoples Temple Christian Church, the Branch Davidians, or Branhamism.
I won't go into some of the sects that have so many nuts that they have
achieved an aura of normalcy.

I have the greatest respect for some branches of Christianity, but with over
30,000 different flavors speaking of Christianity as an monolithic object
is not possible.



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Doug Freyburger
2006-04-07 14:45:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by bowman
Post by Doug Freyburger
Christianity is a mainstream religion therefore draws more
people from the center. Simple as that. We have a higher
percentage of nuts as do all other fringe faiths.
Right...
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/profiles/listalpha.htm
We don't have anything like the Church of God with Signs Following, a.k.a
Snake Handlers, the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments,
the Peoples Temple Christian Church, the Branch Davidians, or Branhamism.
I won't go into some of the sects that have so many nuts that they have
achieved an aura of normalcy.
I have the greatest respect for some branches of Christianity, but with over
30,000 different flavors speaking of Christianity as an monolithic object
is not possible.
We have under a million adherents, they have over a billion.
That's enough to have some extremely whacky sects and still
have the average near the center and the standard deviation
still smaller than ours.

Not that I mind the rate of nuttiness in either Asatru or other faiths.
Nothing a couple of centuries of gradual aging won't happen. I'll
wait. It's something I considered before answering the call.
bowman
2006-04-05 14:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
It is time for the Episcopal left to admit it has pagans in its midst,
and to admit that this is a problem it needs to address.
Right after they address the Reverend Bonnie Perry. Now kindly drag your
spamming ass back to alt.religion.christian.spammers.


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Glorfindel
2006-04-05 16:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Sound of Trumpet wrote:

...
Post by Sound of Trumpet
There is much overlap between pagan views of sexuality, and the LGBT
agenda;
Wiccans, Asatru, Pagans in general, tend to be *relatively*
tolerant folk, but there are tensions within paganism
wrt homosexuality also. Wicca lays a great stress on
male/female balance, fertility, nature, so there are
Wiccan covens which insist on heterosexual leaders. Similarly,
there is a certain amount of hostility toward gays in Asatru,
growing out of the Norse culture in which it originated.
Gay pagans have brought forward things like Odin's living
as a woman in order to gain wisdom, and countered the
straight bias, but it is there in paganism to a degree, just
as it is in some parts of Christianity.

Pagans are sometimes (often?) ex-Christians who have been hurt
by more fundamentalist Christian denominations. Given time
and respect, they sometimes can be brought back to the
Christian faith. I've seen it happen among people I know
personally. But they tend to start out skittish and
defensive, and it does no good to attack and alienate them
further, and if they decide not to return to Christianity,
Christians should respect that decision.

.....
Post by Sound of Trumpet
It is time for Louie Crew, Father Jake, Oasis, and the clergy of the
Church of the Holy Comforter to tell us what they think of Mr.
Johnston's 18-year association with Wicca - and as a priest, no less...
not just a curious bystander.
I think one can look at Wicca and the pagan gods much as C.S. Lewis saw
the Oyeresu in _That Hideous Strength_, or Tolkien saw the Valar
in _Lord of the Rings_: they are sub-powers (angels, if you wish)
active in the world, or symbolic of such sub-powers. IMO, a Christian
can regard them as servants of God, not necessarily enemies or rivals
of God. As a Christian, I regard paganism as incomplete, but not
evil.

...
Attuarii
2006-04-05 17:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glorfindel
...
Post by Sound of Trumpet
There is much overlap between pagan views of sexuality, and the LGBT
agenda;
Wiccans, Asatru, Pagans in general, tend to be *relatively*
tolerant folk, but there are tensions within paganism
wrt homosexuality also. Wicca lays a great stress on
male/female balance, fertility, nature, so there are
Wiccan covens which insist on heterosexual leaders. Similarly,
there is a certain amount of hostility toward gays in Asatru,
growing out of the Norse culture in which it originated.
Gay pagans have brought forward things like Odin's living
as a woman in order to gain wisdom, and countered the
straight bias, but it is there in paganism to a degree, just
as it is in some parts of Christianity.
Heathens (Asatruar) do not, as a general rule, consider our religion to be a
subcategory of Paganism. As for homosexuality, for the most part, it's a
biological condition, and something society should be tolerant of, but not
promote. That is my own opinion, but I suspect it's not an uncommon
position.
--
http://www.google.com/search?q=Rein+Jüdisches+Fett
http://www.ice.gov/graphics/news/newsreleases/articles/051115chicago.htm
Glorfindel
2006-04-05 17:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Attuarii wrote:

....
Post by Attuarii
Heathens (Asatruar) do not, as a general rule, consider our religion to be a
subcategory of Paganism.
My apologies if I misspoke. I meant no disrespect.

.....
Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)
2006-04-05 18:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Ain't got anything to do with me. I am a Heathen, not a Pagan or
Wiccan. Nor am I part of the political left, also some people
mistakenly think I am. Nor am I gay, and I am not interested in what
adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms, as long as they do it
with consenting and mature partners.

Michael Martin - HLF
Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)
2006-04-05 19:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Jesus freaks please read
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/appendixd5.html

Michael Martin - HLF
El Barbaro del Ritmo
2006-04-09 18:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum)
Jesus freaks please read
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/appendixd5.html
Michael Martin - HLF
If you'll make a comparison of the evidence that there was a historical
person we call Jesus, and compare it to the evidence that there was a
historical person we call Arminius, it may re-frame the question a bit and
help explain why most scholars accept that they existed.

--
***
Chomsky on War Crimes in Iraq
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=73753

My links
http://www.ericandsuzanne.com/Links.html
With a newsfeed from Information Clearing House
***

Post.Post.Colonial.Boy
2006-04-06 05:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Attuarii
Post by Glorfindel
...
Post by Sound of Trumpet
There is much overlap between pagan views of sexuality, and the LGBT
agenda;
Wiccans, Asatru, Pagans in general, tend to be *relatively*
tolerant folk, but there are tensions within paganism
wrt homosexuality also. Wicca lays a great stress on
male/female balance, fertility, nature, so there are
Wiccan covens which insist on heterosexual leaders. Similarly,
there is a certain amount of hostility toward gays in Asatru,
growing out of the Norse culture in which it originated.
Gay pagans have brought forward things like Odin's living
as a woman in order to gain wisdom, and countered the
straight bias, but it is there in paganism to a degree, just
as it is in some parts of Christianity.
Heathens (Asatruar) do not, as a general rule, consider our religion to be a
subcategory of Paganism.
Sellf professed "Pagans" often do though...and they don't realise the
offense they give in so doing...would they be so quick as to place
Hindu religion as a sub-category of "Paganism".

Nik
Heidi Graw
2006-04-05 21:37:17 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Glorfindel wrote: Pagans are sometimes (often?) ex-Christians who have been
hurt
by more fundamentalist Christian denominations.
Or, in some cases, they are Christians who've been driven out by
fundamentalist church members. They are what Rev. John Shelby Spong refers
to as "Christians in Exile." Fundamentalists are very good at rendering
Christianity absurd. For the longest time I was a Christian in Exile,
trying my best to live the faith in a way that made sense to me.

But, when you live in spiritual exile, you lack a home. So, some years ago,
I decided to look for my ancient spiritual roots. I found those in Asatru.
What a relief it was to find something that actually belonged to *me!* I
recaptured that what had been taking away and that what had been denied me.
And for as long as I live, I will not, absolutely will not, give up my Eddas
and my ancient faith. Therein lies my spiritual home and I will defend it
to the bitter end! Burn my Eddas and I'll burn your Bible! I feel that
strongly about it.
Given time
and respect, they sometimes can be brought back to the
Christian faith.
Any god which threatens, "Convert or die," is a god not worthy of my
respect. And this "Convert or die," message is the fundamental underpinning
to Christianity. It is a threat and I do not respond well to threats, no
matter how nicely and how sweetly a Christian may try to convey a message of
peace, love and brotherhood. The threat remains: "Convert or die!" I'm
reminded of a desperate plea made by a fundamentalist, "Please, don't go to
Hell! I beg you, don't go to Hell." I found this plea rather offensive.
It was just another way to making that same threat, "Convert or die!"
I've seen it happen among people I know
personally. But they tend to start out skittish and
defensive, and it does no good to attack and alienate them
further, and if they decide not to return to Christianity,
Christians should respect that decision.
Yet, by merely making that simple declaration of being Christian and not
even saying any additional words, still conveys that same message, "Convert
or die." And it is this threat which stands in the way of nurturing any
meaningful friendships with Christians. I will not allow myself to be
threatened. The line is drawn. The Christian over there, I'm over here.
We can engage in civil conversation. We may engage in business
transactions, but a Christian can never become a *true* friend. That
threat, "Convert or die" lingers around like a dark cloud. I don't allow
such a cloud to linger over me or my household...my family. I will not
permit psychological terror to be inflicted upon me or mine.
IMO, a Christian
can regard them as servants of God,
Heathens are not servants of *your* God. We have our own set of Gods and
Goddesses.
not necessarily enemies or rivals
of God. As a Christian, I regard paganism as incomplete,
Oh, aren't you the arrogant one! Christianity = complete, paganism and
heathenry = incomplete. Well, I'll have you know that I have never felt so
spiritually *complete* and *whole* since the day I actually discovered my
ancient spiritual home. I have my deities, I have my own lore stories.
Everything of spiritual importance to me is found in those Eddas. The
stories are enlightening, entertaining, and a valuable guide to how one may
go about living one's life. The Eddas have become my thrill and my delight!
And best of all, my deities don't go around threatening people. They don't
promote this message to "Convert or die!"
but not evil.
No, pagans and heathens are not evil. In fact, more often than not, they
hold themselves up to a higher moral standard than what can be found within
practising Christianity. Generally speaking, you won't find us going around
threatening people. We don't tell others to, "Convert or die!" Nor, do we
condemn people to Hell.

Heidi
Glorfindel
2006-04-05 22:13:43 UTC
Permalink
.....
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Glorfindel
IMO, a Christian
can regard them as servants of God,
Heathens are not servants of *your* God. We have our own set of Gods and
Goddesses.
Yes, I know. I meant that I see the heathen gods and goddesses as
sub-powers or angels, as C.S. Lewis did in his novels, not as
enemies of God or demons, as the early church did and fundamentalist
Christians do.

I have known a number of Asatruar and have been invited to, and
attended, sumbol and blot with them. Some of them have
attended the Episcopal Mass with me and been treated as honored guests.
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Glorfindel
not necessarily enemies or rivals
of God. As a Christian, I regard paganism as incomplete,
Oh, aren't you the arrogant one! Christianity = complete, paganism and
heathenry = incomplete.
I said that is how I, as a Christian, see them. It is my view. If
it were not, I might be Asatru myself, for my heritage is German
and British.
Post by Heidi Graw
Well, I'll have you know that I have never felt so
spiritually *complete* and *whole* since the day I actually discovered my
ancient spiritual home. I have my deities, I have my own lore stories.
Everything of spiritual importance to me is found in those Eddas. The
stories are enlightening, entertaining, and a valuable guide to how one may
go about living one's life. The Eddas have become my thrill and my delight!
I wish you well in your faith and mean you no disrespect.

.....
Dirk Bruere
2006-04-05 23:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glorfindel
.....
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Glorfindel
IMO, a Christian
can regard them as servants of God,
Heathens are not servants of *your* God. We have our own set of Gods
and Goddesses.
Yes, I know. I meant that I see the heathen gods and goddesses as
sub-powers or angels, as C.S. Lewis did in his novels, not as
enemies of God or demons, as the early church did and fundamentalist
Christians do.
I can quite understand that view as I regard them as dynamic archetypes,
like entities in a Ouija game. However, I also view YHVH as being of
exactly the same form.

If you are referring to some transcendent entity beyond this
universe/multiverse then I certainly do not believe it has any interest
in, or interaction with, us in the least.

OTOH the notion of Brahman is quite complete and compelling in that
there is only Brahman dreaming. We are not only bit part players in the
dream, but when we awake we *are* God.

FFF
Dirk
Heidi Graw
2006-04-06 02:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glorfindel
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Glorfindel
IMO, a Christian
can regard them as servants of God,
Heathens are not servants of *your* God. We have our own set of Gods and
Goddesses.
Yes, I know. I meant that I see the heathen gods and goddesses as
sub-powers or angels, as C.S. Lewis did in his novels, not as
enemies of God or demons, as the early church did and fundamentalist
Christians do.
Yes, and by telling me that you think heathen Gods and Goddesses are lesser
powers...angels or demi-gods, you're insulting my deities. They are neither
angels nor demi-gods. They are Gods and Goddesses on par with Jehova. So,
whereas Jehovah is that vengeful and jealous god who insists he is the Big
Daddy over all and who uses the threat of eternal hellfire for anyone not
bowing to his will...well...all I can say to such a god is this, "Give your
head a shake!" That kind of threat I can do without.

And since you insist on diminishing my deities, you're pretty much claiming,
"My God is bigger than your God." This is something little children do.
Perhaps you oughta grow up!
Post by Glorfindel
Glorfindel wrote: I have known a number of Asatruar and have been invited
to, and
attended, sumbol and blot with them. Some of them have
attended the Episcopal Mass with me and been treated as honored guests.
There are times that I feel obligated to attend funerals and weddings of
friends and family who happen to be Christian. When I go to such events, I
go with my posse of Heathen Deities and the Valkyries by my side. In my
mind's eye, I envision them protecting me from the ill effects of Jehovah.
They sit next to me in the pew while wearing their splendid armour. And
when prayers are raised to Jehovah and hymns are sung in honour of him, I
tune out and listen to a great rendition of a poem Bragi whispers into my
ears. Then Odin leans over, pats my arm and tells me, "This bullsh*t will
be over soon enough. Just hang in there." Then when I leave that church, I
let out a sigh of relief! "Whew...thanks be to the Gods for not abandoning
me to the clutches of Jehovah!" I didn't hear a damned thing that pastor
said either! ;-)
Post by Glorfindel
I wish you well in your faith and mean you no disrespect.
Your faith *is* disrespect!

Heidi
Heidi Graw
2006-04-06 08:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glorfindel
Pagans are sometimes (often?) ex-Christians who have been hurt
by more fundamentalist Christian denominations.
Glorfindel, I'm going to give you an example of how Christians harm other
Christians in a way where the harmed Christian will still remain within the
fold.

A while back my mother's cousin died. We called him "Uncle George." He
never spoke about his religious beliefs. He never attended church. No-one
had ever seen him pray. He may have had a religion, or he may not have had
a religion. Whatever it was, was between him and his Deity, if any.

My aunt and their grandson had latched onto a Christian fundamentalist cult
and became active members. When Uncle George died, my aunt arranged for a
secular meeting to be held in the funeral home. It was to be a "Celebration
of his life." Those who had known Uncle George spoke up to eulogize the
man. The speakers all consecrated Uncle Georg's soul to whatever Deity he
may have believed in. His many virtues were bragged about. Uncle George
was a fine man, a devoted husband, a loving father...a friend and a true
companion. He had received the Iron Cross for bravery. The man had
courage! He overcame the deepest hardships and had survived. He was loyal
to his comrades.

Then it came time for his grandson to speak on behalf of his
Grandfather...his Opa. Understandably, the young man was in tears. He
sobbed over the loss of his Opa. He sobbed over the fact that his Opa had
refused to join that Christian cult of theirs. He sobbed because he
believed his Opa was destined to go to Hell. He sobbed over his belief that
he will never see his Opa again! He told everyone gathered there that day
that his Opa died and was going to Hell.

I sat there and felt outrage! How dare this Christian cult teach this young
man that his Opa was destined to go to Hell! After recounting all the good
times he had with his Opa, all the good deeds his Opa took on to be that
attentive and loving Grandfather, this grandson ended with having condemned
his Opa to Hell. He consecrated his Opa's soul to the Devil ... to the
great Satan himself!

This young man was hurting. His Opa is in Hell. He'll never see his Opa
again. And it's all Opa's fault because Opa didn't go to their Thursday and
Sunday meetings! What a thing to teach in Church! No-one even knew whether
or not Opa was that Christian! He might have been, but not made a show of
it! He might have believed actions speak louder than words! But, this
young man is convinced Opa is in Hell.

The grandson and his grandmother still go to those cult meetings on a
regular basis. They've come to grips with the loss and are convinced Opa is
not worth mourning over. He was not a Christian...and that made him
unworthy! No need to remember him.

<sigh>

Heidi
Glorfindel
2006-04-06 12:45:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Glorfindel
Pagans are sometimes (often?) ex-Christians who have been hurt
by more fundamentalist Christian denominations.
Glorfindel, I'm going to give you an example of how Christians harm other
Christians in a way where the harmed Christian will still remain within the
fold.
....

If you, as a follower of Asatru, resent being lumped in with "pagans"
as a group, Episcopalians resent being lumped in with fundamentalist
Protestants just as much. Many of the Asatruar I knew had similar
stories. Many of the Episcopalians I know have similar stories -- which
is why they are now Episcopalians.
j***@bellsouth.net
2006-04-06 02:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609295/posts
Star Trip: the weird and relentless creep of paganism into the
Episcopal left
Stand Firm ^ | 4/04/2006 | Greg Griffith
Posted on 04/04/2006 6:07:30 PM PDT by sionnsar
It seems almost quaint now, but almost two years ago there was a
gathering of pagans in Michigan that shocked Epicopalians with seminars
such as "Sex & Spells: Gender and Political Activism in the Witchen
Community." It was sponsored by Oasis, the California-based pro-gay
activist group devoted to advancing the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and
trans-gendered agenda in the Episcopal Church.
Then there was the much-publicized dust-up over William Melnyk, the
Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Pennsylvania, who was asked to
resign his post as rector after it became clear he was moonlighting as
a Druid priest, alternately going by the names "Oakwyse" and "Bran."
Now, thanks to some research by commenter Liz at TitusOneNine, it turns
out that Maury Johnston, author of Gays Under Grace: A Gay Christian's
Response to Homosexuality and the recent widely-publicized essay
"Facing the Spectre of Schism", is also known as "Shadwynn" and belongs
to a Wiccan order called "Keepers of the Cauldron." The coven is
described as being in the "grail quest tradition," based on the
Arthurian legends and featuring a strong Eucharistic theme. Mr.
Johnston claims to have "married" nine couples in his 18 years a Wiccan
priest, and his other writings only underscore his bizarre notions of
how to "blend" Christianity and Wicca.
Mr. Johnston's essay "Facing the Spectre of Schism" was also reprinted
with much enthusiasm in this post at "Father Jake Stops The World" and
on - surprise - the Oasis blog. Father Jake posted another Johnston
essay here.
These are not the only examples of Episcopal priests and prominent lay
activists on the left dabbling in - and in some cases, immersing
themselves in - polytheism, paganism, and witchcraft. They are simply
some of the more well-known examples.
Many of us have taken solace in humor whenever we read of Episcopal
clerics and prominent lay activists heavily involved in paganism, but
it has not been without the knolwedge that there is a sinister core to
these peoples' alternative beliefs. Many pagans and Wiccans insist that
they don't worship the devil, and that's true as far as it goes, but
it's small comfort to those Christians who have put their spiritual
trust in those who, at best, profess contradictory beliefs and, at
worst, are willing to serve up a potion of part Christianity, part
Wicca to unsuspecting seekers.
But now it is time for us and for revisionist Episcopalians to have a
serious discussion about the matter of paganism in the Episcopal left.
It has become increasingly difficult to shrug off events like
Michigan's seminar, and people like William Melnyk and Maury Johnston,
as fringe cases, not when the likes of Louie Crew and Father Jake - two
of the Episcopal left's most visible activists - see fit to rely on Mr.
Johnston's words to make their case that ECUSA should open its doors as
widely as possible, to welcome in God only knows what.
It is time for Episcopalians everywhere - especially those in the
"middle" who may just now be waking up to the crisis in their church -
to know that there are more than a few pagans among the left, and that
they are uniformly in support of the gay/lesbian/transgender agenda.
There is much overlap between pagan views of sexuality, and the LGBT
agenda; and while it's incorrect to assume that one who supports the
LGBT agenda also supports paganism, it should give reasonable
Episcopalians serious pause when they ponder why it is that the
opposite is true - that it's safe to assume that if someone supports
paganism, he also supports the LGBT cause in the Episcopal Church.
It is time for the Episcopal left to admit it has pagans in its midst,
and to admit that this is a problem it needs to address.
It is time for Louie Crew, Father Jake, Oasis, and the clergy of the
Church of the Holy Comforter to tell us what they think of Mr.
Johnston's 18-year association with Wicca - and as a priest, no less...
not just a curious bystander.
Is this the first they have heard about Mr. Johnston's life as a Wiccan
priest? If so, may we assume that they will take this opportunity to
disavow themselves of Mr. Johnston's practice of Wicca, and to begin
seriously to confront the influence of paganism among their fellow
travellers?
If this is not the first they've heard of it, what may we assume about
their failure to mention it? Was it mere oversight? A calculated
omission? Or is it tacit approval?
At least the writer if this piece knows the difference between the adjective
Episcopal and the noun Episcopalian.
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