Discussion:
female religious figures .
(too old to reply)
David Dalton
2003-12-29 17:34:22 UTC
Permalink
In order to get a bit more balance on my web page, if that
is possible after past patriarchial historian and patriarchial
religious organization editings of history, I would to know
of any past or living major women religious figures including
women saints, gurus, prophets, major mystics, boddhisattvas, the
original woman figure for a goddess or orisha name if that
name is known, thought, or suspected to have originated
with a real woman, women avatars (though the term avatar is
generally used in Hinduism to refer to a male and devi
to a female unless I am wrong), devis, major inspirers
of male figures, and pivotal Old Testament women. So if you
know of books, journal articles, web sites or past newsgroup
posts on the subject please follow up, and I will later
summarize responses from other groups.

Now so far on my web page I mention more past male mystics
in comparison to my own cycles/experiences but that could
be that the men are more new moon associated and the women
more full moon associated. The women I mention on the web
page so far are of the type of major inspirers and partners
of male figures, so Radha with Krishna, The Shulamite with
Solomon, Oonagh with Finn, maybe Magdalene with Jesus.
an original figure or repesentative of Aphrodite with Adonis,
perhaps Caer with Angus, Emer with Cu Chulainn, and others
(did Kali have a fool associated with her?)

However in the past I have speculated there may be
several types of major women religious figures:

1. I say I am an as yet ultra minor global male religious
figure of the type that has waning crescent highs
during initiatory years (for me from 1991 to 1994),
and inspired by a woman figure, for me Sarah McLachlan
even if she never wants me romantically. Now perhaps
there are also women figures of that type who are
inspired by a man and who have initiatory waning
crescent highs but I don't have evidence of that yet

2. the major inspirers of the male figures in 1, such that
if the male figures are "avatar" types then the female
figures are "devi" types, so like Krishna and Radha

3. other major influences on the male figures, for example in
in my case I got spontaneous shaktipat from yoga teacher
Gioia Irwin, was raised by my sister Anne, and my favourite
songwriter is Ferron

4. stand-alone female figures not of the type I have no evidence
for yet of 1 which would be inspired by a man, or of the
types of 2 and 3 who would influence a man (but would also
be strong figures in their own right), perhaps stronger
at full moon, perhaps not. Some examples of this might
be the original human figure if any for White Buffalo
Woman, and also Sufi mystic/poet Rabi'a, for example.


One think about my web page is that the women mentioned there
are today less well known than their male associates (even
Radha is a bit less known than Krishna). It could be that
by reading up on some past women figures I will find more
male figures similar to me but in those cases the male
figures are less known than the women figures. But as I
say above, there are definitely lots of women figures not
necessarily assoaciated with a man and even if they are
they are often very significant figures in their own right
who sometimes have been slightened by history writers and
religious text editors over the centuries.

So anyway I would like to get a bit more gender balance
onto my web page, though my web page does present some
feminist messages in the first section. I was raised
by my sister who is a feminist, consider myself a male
feminist if feminist is defined as one who supports
equal rights and responsibilities (within biology) for
women and men, and tend to be more attracted to feminist
women on average. Anyway my Salmon on the Thorns web page is
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html .

D.
Rorik
2003-12-30 00:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dalton
Now so far on my web page I mention more past male mystics
in comparison to my own cycles/experiences but that could
be that the men are more new moon associated and the women
more full moon associated.
Yes, I'm sure that's the problem.
Doug Freyburger
2004-01-02 20:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dalton
In order to get a bit more balance on my web page, if that
is possible
It's not possible. The reason there have been more male religious
figures is the same as the reason there have been more male artists,
scientists and so on. The exact reason is unknown in fine detail,
but in a sweep there are more male idiots than female idiots and
there are more male geniuses than female geniuses. Woman cluster
more around the average than men. It's true in height, weight and
anything else you care to mention including mental attributes.

All of those male idiots have been largely forgotten in time, but
just try to picture "the village idiot" sometime. Chances are your
picture is of a man. But with more male geniuses a few get
remembered.
Post by David Dalton
after past patriarchial historian and patriarchial
religious organization editings of history
Right. Women now have equal access; how have the numbers of
women leaders changed?
Post by David Dalton
I would to know
of any past or living major women religious figures including
women saints, gurus, prophets, major mystics, boddhisattvas, the
original woman figure for a goddess or orisha name if that
name is known, thought, or suspected to have originated
with a real woman, women avatars (though the term avatar is
generally used in Hinduism to refer to a male and devi
to a female unless I am wrong), devis, major inspirers
of male figures, and pivotal Old Testament women.
You should start with one of the oldest artifacts known and
maybe the oldest art object known. Venus of Willendorf.
Heidi Graw
2004-01-03 10:29:33 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Doug Freyburger
Right. Women now have equal access; how have the numbers of
women leaders changed?
Not by much. An observation from a friend of mine working at the
University: Male professors make time to network, will stay the longer
hours to attend meetings, and will take the time to write and do whatever.
More of them will be those leaders in any given field of study. Women, on
the other hand, will try to balance home life with their work life. They'll
opt out of evening meetings, evening networking and/or otherwise staying in
the office. A man may also hole himself away at home to concentrate on
work, while a woman will juggle her work with laundry, cooking and reading
to the children.

The only women I know who've become leaders in their fields are those who
never married, or have gotten divorced and have no children.

What seems to be happening is that women will allow their husbands the time
to succeed to become those leaders, but men are not equally allowing their
wives to do the same. There's also this stigma attached to men doing
laundry and child-care duties. Few men will tell their boss, "Sorry, but
I've got to go home to the kids." A woman, however, will. And this works
as a strike against her if and when she is in a profession.

Take care,
Heidi
bowman
2004-01-03 16:35:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
The only women I know who've become leaders in their fields are those who
never married, or have gotten divorced and have no children.
The same thing applies to men. The difference is a man can be married but
not really a functional family member. I have had friends who have had to
make the choice. I don't mean that they became househusbands, or were
running home to take care of a sick kid, just that when push came to shove,
their responsibility to their family came first. I fully respect their
choice, but it did nothing for their careers.

It's subtle. The boss says "we really need to get this project out the door.
Can you work this weekend?" You say, "I'd like to, but it's my daughter's
10th birthday and i've made plans." Congratulations -- you've just entered
the slow lane.

There certainly is prejudice against women in some fields; otoh being a
leader in your field has a price tag. The prejudice become enmity when a
person wants a special discount for whatever reason. The best we can hope
for is to eliminate the prejudice so anyone, male, female, black, white,
purple can take a shot at the prize. We've come a long way in doing that.
After that, the individual has to decide if the prize is really worth it.
Ya makes your choices...
Doug Freyburger
2004-01-05 16:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Doug Freyburger
Right. Women now have equal access; how have the numbers of
women leaders changed?
Not by much.
Right. So either it's their choice, or it's something else.

My observation remains: There are more male idiots than female
idiots. There are more male geniuses than female geniuses. After
several centuries, few but the geniuses are remembered. The
relative number of woman leaders appears to be smaller because
their number is factually smaller in spite of the fact that the
percentage of women worldwide is nearly 51%. On the other hand,
the extra male idiots help balance the equation.
Post by Heidi Graw
An observation from a friend of mine working at the
University: Male professors make time to network, will stay the longer
hours to attend meetings, and will take the time to write and do whatever.
More of them will be those leaders in any given field of study. Women, on
the other hand, will try to balance home life with their work life. They'll
opt out of evening meetings, evening networking and/or otherwise staying in
the office. A man may also hole himself away at home to concentrate on
work, while a woman will juggle her work with laundry, cooking and reading
to the children.
The only women I know who've become leaders in their fields are those who
never married, or have gotten divorced and have no children.
So it's a personal choice then.
Post by Heidi Graw
What seems to be happening is that women will allow their husbands the time
to succeed to become those leaders, but men are not equally allowing their
wives to do the same. There's also this stigma attached to men doing
laundry and child-care duties. Few men will tell their boss, "Sorry, but
I've got to go home to the kids." A woman, however, will. And this works
as a strike against her if and when she is in a profession.
At least it's a personal choice that has a nice sounding excuse built
in with it.

The good thing is the societies in the world that offer women the most
opportunity to *make* the tough choices are those choices with the most
heathen roots, our Germanic-Anglo-American western culture.
Doug Freyburger
2004-01-02 20:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dalton
So anyway I would like to get a bit more gender balance
onto my web page
How about focusing on Gods and Goddesses rather than humans, then?
There are as many Goddesses as there are Gods. They desire more
attention.

Hail the Aysunir!
Doug Freyburger
David Dalton
2004-01-04 01:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Freyburger
Post by David Dalton
So anyway I would like to get a bit more gender balance
onto my web page
How about focusing on Gods and Goddesses rather than humans, then?
There are as many Goddesses as there are Gods. They desire more
attention.
Hail the Aysunir!
Doug Freyburger
My hope was that many Goddess names have roots in actual
human women (but I doubt all). For example from the
human woman Radha has evolved a goddess tradition
probably overlapping some but also fairly distinct
from the traditions associated with her consort Krishna.

Also Odin was said to have originated or manifested
in the human male who wrote Havamal 139 to 141 (and
he hung on a tree as Herne hung on a tree and Jesus
hung on a cross) but if so who was the human woman
associated with that human male and which Goddess
(or several if so) are romantically connected with
Odin. For me, Odin has new moon associations
because of the ravens and the missing eye so perhaps
that woman and/or goddess have full moon associations.

I have to run now but may comment more tomorrow.

Come visit L'Anse Aux Meadows
http://www.google.ca/search?q=L%27Anse+Aux+meadows&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
lists some sites.

David
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2004-01-04 01:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dalton
Post by Doug Freyburger
Post by David Dalton
So anyway I would like to get a bit more gender balance
onto my web page
How about focusing on Gods and Goddesses rather than humans, then?
There are as many Goddesses as there are Gods. They desire more
attention.
Hail the Aysunir!
Doug Freyburger
My hope was that many Goddess names have roots in actual
human women (but I doubt all). For example from the
human woman Radha has evolved a goddess tradition
probably overlapping some but also fairly distinct
from the traditions associated with her consort Krishna.
Also Odin was said to have originated or manifested
in the human male who wrote Havamal 139 to 141 (and
he hung on a tree as Herne hung on a tree and Jesus
hung on a cross) but if so who was the human woman
associated with that human male and which Goddess
(or several if so) are romantically connected with
Odin. For me, Odin has new moon associations
Married to Frigga, possible romanic associations with Freya (as have many
others).
No connection with the moon AFAIK.
Sun (female) and moon (male) are not big deities in the Nordic pantheon.
Post by David Dalton
because of the ravens and the missing eye so perhaps
that woman and/or goddess have full moon associations.
FFF
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Doug Freyburger
2004-01-05 16:16:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dalton
Post by Doug Freyburger
Post by David Dalton
So anyway I would like to get a bit more gender balance
onto my web page
How about focusing on Gods and Goddesses rather than humans, then?
There are as many Goddesses as there are Gods. They desire more
attention.
Desire and deserve.
Post by David Dalton
My hope was that many Goddess names have roots in actual
human women (but I doubt all). For example from the
human woman Radha has evolved a goddess tradition
probably overlapping some but also fairly distinct
from the traditions associated with her consort Krishna.
The Aesir predate the existance of humanity. Either you accept
that or you don't. I'm sure some of the names they have been
know by were the names of human women at some point. A bit
like Victoria Falls in Africa is a real waterfall that has
existed for millenia but its name comes from a human woman.
David Dalton
2004-01-06 00:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Freyburger
Post by David Dalton
Post by Doug Freyburger
Post by David Dalton
So anyway I would like to get a bit more gender balance
onto my web page
How about focusing on Gods and Goddesses rather than humans, then?
There are as many Goddesses as there are Gods. They desire more
attention.
Desire and deserve.
Post by David Dalton
My hope was that many Goddess names have roots in actual
human women (but I doubt all). For example from the
human woman Radha has evolved a goddess tradition
probably overlapping some but also fairly distinct
from the traditions associated with her consort Krishna.
The Aesir predate the existance of humanity. Either you accept
that or you don't. I'm sure some of the names they have been
know by were the names of human women at some point. A bit
like Victoria Falls in Africa is a real waterfall that has
existed for millenia but its name comes from a human woman.
Last night on the TV series Human Cargo on CBC I saw a
shot into a misty chasm in Africa and thought of the
dawn of our species and got a powerful "buzz" (river
rush or fire/"energy").

But anyway obviously someone in human form said and/or
wrote the Havamal 139 to 141, right?

I have a big deadline in three weeks though so must say
goodbye to this group until after then but can still be
found as resident kook on alt.music.s-mclachlan . But
if you start an off-topic thread there start the subject
with an "OT: ". Her web site is
http://www.sarahmclachlan.com and she once toured with
The Chieftains and also collaborated with Seamus Egan on
The Brothers McMullen movie soundtrack.

D.
(me a d)

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